A Berber saber?

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 08:36 PM

Hi Fenris,
For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons!

Thats the fun, learning together.
Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples.

All the best,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 08:20 PM

Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade:

Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them?

I'll post more pics in a while....

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2007, 08:51 PM

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration.

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier.

I think the similarity here is a matter of form following function. For one thing, the blade on mine is attached to the hilt with one or more rivets/pins, as opposed to the resin method that is more common in SE Asia. The pistol-grip curve to the hilt is simple ergonomics, especially since the hilt on my sword doesn't flare open in both directions as is common on SE Asian blades.

Aside from the checkerboard pattern, which no one has identified yet, the greatest similarity I've seen as far as overall execution has been the Bou-Saadi knives; a slot cut for the tang half the length of the hilt, pinned and bound with wire.

FenrisWolf · 15th February 2007, 01:48 AM

As promised:

The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?

TVV · 15th February 2007, 03:35 AM

I am with Tim on this one. SEA appears more likely, just the hilt with its brass (not silver) wire feels that way. I will add more reasons why I am leaning towards SEA soon.

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2007, 05:17 AM

It seems that many times when identifying ethnographic weapons, especially with variations and hybrids, it is often the inclination to head toward ones predominate field of study and to rationalize classification in that category.

While my inclination initially was toward a North African, specifically Spanish Saharan attribution on this weapon, I had not considered the suggestions of SEA possibility as this was largely outside my field of study.

In reconsidering, especially after review of the reference used by Tim ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago", A.Van Zonneveld, Leiden, 2001), I must revise my views on this piece to agree that this does not appear to be North African.

The key to the likely attribution of this weapon should be focused primarily on the hilt shape, rather than superficial decorative motif, and in reviewing the Van Zonneveld reference, there are numerous hilts throughout Indonesia which reflect distinct similarities to this one. In addition to referencing this book, Tim brought up some good points in the importance of considering materials and construction in examining this weapon, as well as the fact that in Timor, the nail motif occurred and foreign blades were often used.

While viewing various hilts in this book, although there were many extremely similar forms shown, one of the closest profiles I could see was a 'kabeala' from Sumba (p.59, fig.171). The wire wrap, agreeably a superficial element, especially in the case of refurbished weapons which could be applied in virtually any regional instance, can be seen illustrated in Sumatran examples (p.53). As mentioned, the nail motif as well as the geometric application seen in the Timor weapons present compelling interest when considering the checkerboard motif, despite the lack of examples with which to compare.

It is worthy of note that another of these 'checkerboard' motif hilts has been discovered, with the hilt remarkably similar aside from two notches at the top.
Hopefully we can get photos of that one as well, and continue research for other comparisons with emphasis on the Indonesian sphere.

All best regards,
Jim

14th February 2007, 08:51 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration. Attached Images

11th February 2007, 08:36 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Fenris, For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons! Thats the fun, learning together. Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 08:20 PM	#2
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade: Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them? I'll post more pics in a while....

15th February 2007, 01:48 AM	#5
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	As promised: The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?

15th February 2007, 03:35 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I am with Tim on this one. SEA appears more likely, just the hilt with its brass (not silver) wire feels that way. I will add more reasons why I am leaning towards SEA soon.

15th February 2007, 05:17 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	It seems that many times when identifying ethnographic weapons, especially with variations and hybrids, it is often the inclination to head toward ones predominate field of study and to rationalize classification in that category. While my inclination initially was toward a North African, specifically Spanish Saharan attribution on this weapon, I had not considered the suggestions of SEA possibility as this was largely outside my field of study. In reconsidering, especially after review of the reference used by Tim ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago", A.Van Zonneveld, Leiden, 2001), I must revise my views on this piece to agree that this does not appear to be North African. The key to the likely attribution of this weapon should be focused primarily on the hilt shape, rather than superficial decorative motif, and in reviewing the Van Zonneveld reference, there are numerous hilts throughout Indonesia which reflect distinct similarities to this one. In addition to referencing this book, Tim brought up some good points in the importance of considering materials and construction in examining this weapon, as well as the fact that in Timor, the nail motif occurred and foreign blades were often used. While viewing various hilts in this book, although there were many extremely similar forms shown, one of the closest profiles I could see was a 'kabeala' from Sumba (p.59, fig.171). The wire wrap, agreeably a superficial element, especially in the case of refurbished weapons which could be applied in virtually any regional instance, can be seen illustrated in Sumatran examples (p.53). As mentioned, the nail motif as well as the geometric application seen in the Timor weapons present compelling interest when considering the checkerboard motif, despite the lack of examples with which to compare. It is worthy of note that another of these 'checkerboard' motif hilts has been discovered, with the hilt remarkably similar aside from two notches at the top. Hopefully we can get photos of that one as well, and continue research for other comparisons with emphasis on the Indonesian sphere. All best regards, Jim