A Berber saber?

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 06:34 PM

Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion.
Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison!

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 11th February 2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

Thanks, Jim. As a relative newbie to being a serious collector (as opposed to just being a dabbler who bought whatever was "neat") I know I have a lot to learn. It's one of the reasons I've decided to focus on a much narrower geographic area for the majority of my attention.

As to the blending of European military and ethnic arms, well, weaponry doesn't develop in a vacuum, and seeing examples where native craftsmen have taken outsider's weapons (whether from an invader's hands or an importer's cart) and made them their own is just one more element to be considering in studying the evolution of weapons. For example, prior to joining this forum I was aware that wootz steel was prized, but had never heard that there were some European blades that were even moreso. It's kind of nice to be going back to school after all this time.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 08:36 PM

Hi Fenris,
For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons!

Thats the fun, learning together.
Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples.

All the best,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 08:20 PM

Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade:

Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them?

I'll post more pics in a while....

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2007, 08:51 PM

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration.

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier.

I think the similarity here is a matter of form following function. For one thing, the blade on mine is attached to the hilt with one or more rivets/pins, as opposed to the resin method that is more common in SE Asia. The pistol-grip curve to the hilt is simple ergonomics, especially since the hilt on my sword doesn't flare open in both directions as is common on SE Asian blades.

Aside from the checkerboard pattern, which no one has identified yet, the greatest similarity I've seen as far as overall execution has been the Bou-Saadi knives; a slot cut for the tang half the length of the hilt, pinned and bound with wire.

FenrisWolf · 15th February 2007, 01:48 AM

As promised:

The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?

14th February 2007, 08:51 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration. Attached Images

11th February 2007, 06:34 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion. Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison! Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons. Best regards, Jim

11th February 2007, 08:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Fenris, For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons! Thats the fun, learning together. Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 08:20 PM	#4
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade: Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them? I'll post more pics in a while....

15th February 2007, 01:48 AM	#7
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	As promised: The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?