A Berber saber?

FenrisWolf · 11th February 2007, 08:09 AM

No luck on the hilt yet, but I did stumble across this version of a nimcha on the Therion Arms page. The blade is listed as 'napoleonic', and at 24 1/2" is identical in length to the one I just bought. Due to the poor angle in the pictures posted by the seller it's impossible to be sure, but it looks awfully close to me. Not also the slight humpback profile to the hilt, peraps due to the profile of the tang? Anyway, more food for thought.

PS -- I hope I didn't violate any rules by posting these pics. I did give credit for their source, and the item in question was already sold.

Tim Simmons · 11th February 2007, 09:16 AM

This hilt is from A. G.Van Zonnevelds, Traditional weapons of The Indonesian Archipelago. Okay it is not the same shape but does show the same decorative materials and technique. One could also argue that the shape is as similar as the Nimcha. In the aforementioned book swords from Timor like the hilt shown often had European blades. Also in this book pictures of other swords from Timor are all constructed in this more simple manner. I am sure I have some better pictures which I will add when I find then. I also want to add some pictures to the rust removal thread but can a find them

Maybe if I stop look so hard i will find what I want right in front of my eyes.

Flavio · 11th February 2007, 10:43 AM

Hi all! me too i was looking at this beauty (congratulations Fenris!!

) and i was thinking that is a north african sword. Maybe i'm wrong but the decoration on the handle remember me some decorations on maroccan or north african matchlock guns.

My twoo cents...

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 04:19 PM

I am in accord with Rick on this one, I also believe this to be most likely from Spanish regions in Morocco, and as he notes the blade is military. The blade appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry example as occur in use on the 'Berber' sabres also being shown in the posts here. Although these interesting sabres have generally been accepted as Berber and probably from Moroccan regions, there is some disagreement to that attribution. These typically occur with the M1796 blades, which are typically highly profiled at the tip, although other sabre blades have been seen and not all carry the dramatic profiling. I remain inclined to believe they are indeed from Spanish Morocco.

I think this interesting variant posted by Fenris reflects traditional Mudejar influence in the studded checkerboard motif, though as noted, this motif does seem atypical on weapons of these regions. It seems of course that I have seen something similar, but as yet have not located it. In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork" (Simmons & Turley, N.M.1980, p.5), the authors note ornamental nail heads or bosses (=chatones) liberally applied to doors and chest, and that the "...Moorish distaste for empty space", "...led them to fill large door panels with symmetrical placings of decorative nail heads". Although this characteristic describes quite early application of this motif in medieval Andulusia, the style of course carried into the Spanish regions in Morocco and is reflected in degree in the material culture there.

The wire wrap on the grip of course reflects that practice on the sword hilts of Arabia and India, deriving from the same often applied on Persian shamshirs. The knives of Bou Saada adopted that characteristic in the same manner as appears on this sabre ( the term nimcha of course colloquially presumed), through trade influences as that was in important stop in Algeria on caravan routes.

The curved profile of the blade root to meet the ferrule of the grip is much the same as on the 'Berber' sabres.

The inclination that often brings the recollection of SEA probability in many of these weapons from North Africa I think derives from the fact that many of the influences on those weapons also derive from Arab trade, that of course carried in degree many Moorish features. That is of course even more prevalent in Philippine regions which were colonized by Spain, and those influences certainly diffused in the environs through trade, warfare and varied interaction.

I hope somebody can find an example of the 'checkerboard' mofif elsewhere, its drivin' me nuts trying to find the example I saw!!

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 11th February 2007, 06:17 PM

So far it is 4-1 that are still a different shape and do not display decoration, construction and forte arrangement similar to the starting piece. To me we need pictures of other examples to be sure of any opinion.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 06:34 PM

Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion.
Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison!

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 11th February 2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

Thanks, Jim. As a relative newbie to being a serious collector (as opposed to just being a dabbler who bought whatever was "neat") I know I have a lot to learn. It's one of the reasons I've decided to focus on a much narrower geographic area for the majority of my attention.

As to the blending of European military and ethnic arms, well, weaponry doesn't develop in a vacuum, and seeing examples where native craftsmen have taken outsider's weapons (whether from an invader's hands or an importer's cart) and made them their own is just one more element to be considering in studying the evolution of weapons. For example, prior to joining this forum I was aware that wootz steel was prized, but had never heard that there were some European blades that were even moreso. It's kind of nice to be going back to school after all this time.

11th February 2007, 09:16 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	This hilt is from A. G.Van Zonnevelds, Traditional weapons of The Indonesian Archipelago. Okay it is not the same shape but does show the same decorative materials and technique. One could also argue that the shape is as similar as the Nimcha. In the aforementioned book swords from Timor like the hilt shown often had European blades. Also in this book pictures of other swords from Timor are all constructed in this more simple manner. I am sure I have some better pictures which I will add when I find then. I also want to add some pictures to the rust removal thread but can a find them Maybe if I stop look so hard i will find what I want right in front of my eyes. Attached Images

11th February 2007, 08:09 AM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	No luck on the hilt yet, but I did stumble across this version of a nimcha on the Therion Arms page. The blade is listed as 'napoleonic', and at 24 1/2" is identical in length to the one I just bought. Due to the poor angle in the pictures posted by the seller it's impossible to be sure, but it looks awfully close to me. Not also the slight humpback profile to the hilt, peraps due to the profile of the tang? Anyway, more food for thought. PS -- I hope I didn't violate any rules by posting these pics. I did give credit for their source, and the item in question was already sold.

11th February 2007, 10:43 AM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all! me too i was looking at this beauty (congratulations Fenris!! ) and i was thinking that is a north african sword. Maybe i'm wrong but the decoration on the handle remember me some decorations on maroccan or north african matchlock guns. My twoo cents...

11th February 2007, 04:19 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I am in accord with Rick on this one, I also believe this to be most likely from Spanish regions in Morocco, and as he notes the blade is military. The blade appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry example as occur in use on the 'Berber' sabres also being shown in the posts here. Although these interesting sabres have generally been accepted as Berber and probably from Moroccan regions, there is some disagreement to that attribution. These typically occur with the M1796 blades, which are typically highly profiled at the tip, although other sabre blades have been seen and not all carry the dramatic profiling. I remain inclined to believe they are indeed from Spanish Morocco. I think this interesting variant posted by Fenris reflects traditional Mudejar influence in the studded checkerboard motif, though as noted, this motif does seem atypical on weapons of these regions. It seems of course that I have seen something similar, but as yet have not located it. In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork" (Simmons & Turley, N.M.1980, p.5), the authors note ornamental nail heads or bosses (=chatones) liberally applied to doors and chest, and that the "...Moorish distaste for empty space", "...led them to fill large door panels with symmetrical placings of decorative nail heads". Although this characteristic describes quite early application of this motif in medieval Andulusia, the style of course carried into the Spanish regions in Morocco and is reflected in degree in the material culture there. The wire wrap on the grip of course reflects that practice on the sword hilts of Arabia and India, deriving from the same often applied on Persian shamshirs. The knives of Bou Saada adopted that characteristic in the same manner as appears on this sabre ( the term nimcha of course colloquially presumed), through trade influences as that was in important stop in Algeria on caravan routes. The curved profile of the blade root to meet the ferrule of the grip is much the same as on the 'Berber' sabres. The inclination that often brings the recollection of SEA probability in many of these weapons from North Africa I think derives from the fact that many of the influences on those weapons also derive from Arab trade, that of course carried in degree many Moorish features. That is of course even more prevalent in Philippine regions which were colonized by Spain, and those influences certainly diffused in the environs through trade, warfare and varied interaction. I hope somebody can find an example of the 'checkerboard' mofif elsewhere, its drivin' me nuts trying to find the example I saw!! All the best, Jim

11th February 2007, 06:17 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	So far it is 4-1 that are still a different shape and do not display decoration, construction and forte arrangement similar to the starting piece. To me we need pictures of other examples to be sure of any opinion.

11th February 2007, 06:34 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion. Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison! Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons. Best regards, Jim