Museum Nusantara

Dajak · 4th February 2007, 04:16 PM

Hi David I am just warning what can happend to someone everyone is free to do what he like s

Ben

rasdan · 4th February 2007, 09:16 PM

Just to make things clear; or perhaps i misunderstood what had been written, the warning is not from Dajak.

I highly appreciate Dajak's comment.

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2007, 11:10 PM

I've just read through this thread from beginning to end.

I've decided not to contribute my opinions to this discussion, and after this post I will not be drawn. This post will probably be long and maybe a bit rambling, and at its conclusion there will be no answers, so if you're easily bored, click out now and forget what I will write.

When I was 18 years old I was involved as a frequent visitor to a remote NSW country town. This was Australia, 1950's. The group of people I used to visit this town with formed a close association with the Kooris (Australian Aboriginals) living at the local mission station. I formed close friendships with a couple of these Koori people. The brother of one of the girls I knew there had transgressed tribal law, and the decision was taken to sing him. This is commonly known as "pointing the bone". He initially laughed it off and said that the old people couldn't touch him because he was modern and didn't believe in all that b/s. However, he did get sick, he went into hospital, they couldn't find anything wrong with him, he was transferred to a bigger hospital down on the coast. Some time after I got home I heard he had died.

I have been playing with keris for a very long time. I don't know how many keris I've had through my hands. I do know that it exceeds 5000. I also know that during my entire life I cannot associate either one fortunate event, or one unfortunate event with any keris.

Since I have been visiting Jawa I have been given a number of keris. I think that at the moment it totals 12 keris and tombak. The first one I was ever given was given to me simply because the owner liked me and could not be bothered looking after the keris. Subsequent events that affected the life of this man have caused a number of people to identify him giving me this keris, which was in fact his family keris, as the turning point in his life from being more or less fortunate to being more than a little unfortunate. Maybe the keris caused this. Or maybe his nature caused it. Believe what you will.

Other keris and tombak have been given to me for similar reasons, that is, that the owners simply did not want the responsibility of looking after them.
However a number of keris have come to me for blacker reasons.
I have three keris that I accepted that were associated with death and misfortune. One in particular was reputed to have caused the deaths of at least 5 people, and the people who knew of it would not even touch it. When I accepted it I had to go a shed at the back of the house and remove it from under a pile of offerings that had been made by various dukuns.

Now, none of these keris, no keris I have ever had in my possession has ever given me any bad feelings, nor raised hairs on the back of my neck, nor caused any mental disquiet.
On the other hand, a number of keris I have had in my possession have given me feelings of warmth and comfort and ease of mind. Any feeling I have ever had from any keris has only been a feeling of peace, not of disquiet.
And this includes a couple of keris that I have that two paranormals identified as being "evil".

I have come to the conclusion that any evil, any good, any power or force that may be ---or may not be--- associated with any keris is absolutely and purely dependent upon the the human being involved, not upon the keris.

I have heard an enormous number of keris stories, and even if only 1% of these stories were true, I think I would have to accept that in some cases, something happens that cannot be explained rationally.But nothing like this has ever happened with me.

Now, coming back to Koori beliefs.
A few years after my friend's brother died as a consequence of being sung, I met a man who had also been sung. This man had done something the tribal elders had decided could not go unpunished, so the decision was take to sing him. The difference this time was that the man who was sung had no Koori blood, but was of pure European descent. When he heard that he was being sung all he did was laugh at the "ignorant blackfellers" ( his words, not mine), and he felt no effect at all.I heard that he died a couple of years ago, he was in his nineties.

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

David · 5th February 2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

Very well said Alan, i think i am in 100% agreement with you. I have not handled anywhere near as many keris as you have. So far i have had very much the same experience though and i have never met a keris that i didn't like or thought was intrinsicly "evil". I am of the mind that certain keris are most definitely "alive", but my feeling is that the power involved is a neutral one. In other words, "Keris don't kill, people do!"

Every keris that comes into my possession, regardless of whether i sense any power from it or not or whether it is old or recently made is cleansed, feed and ritually dedicated to the path of service in the "geat work" to the creator. So far i have had no complaints from the keris.

Dajak · 5th February 2007, 05:44 PM

Well there is an keris in the Netherlands that break down your car

This can be verified if it have to be

So I am not agree with you A.G. Maisey you based upon what your expirience are not what happend to other people based on true story s

And take my word for it if the keris don t like you he can make you sick or let you die even if you don t believe in it .

This has happend for real it is no funny story it is sad that some difficult are believing this

that s why most people don t tell story s what happend to them and not talk about the subject

But see if you can get books translated from H.W.M.J. Rijnders

Stille krachten van de kris

Geloven in bijgeloof

Ben

David · 5th February 2007, 06:39 PM

Ben, i think if you carefully reread what both Mr. Maisey and myself are saying you will see that neither of us necessarily disbelieve that these events can and do occur, nor do either of us find any of these events particularly funny. My question was not whether or not these things happen. Rather i am trying to get at the nature of the power and study just why it might have a effect on some people and not on others. Still, it seems to me that you are making these powers out to be somewhat omnipotent. I personally believe that these powers can, in fact must, serve a higher source. And if, as you say, a keris doesn't like me and makes me sick (which would seem odd to me since i care for it and feed it, therefore maintaining it's life) i always have the power to break it in pieces and throw it in the river or feed it back to the forge. I believe i am in essence more powerful than the keris. Now, if a keris is being used as a tool of black magick by another person against me that is another issue that would require a different approach. Then i am not just battling the will of the keris (if infact it has any), but the will of the other person as well. He may, in fact, be more powerful than i, but not his keris.

Dajak · 5th February 2007, 07:50 PM

Hi David sorry for misunderstanding you but don t forget that the other person when he have an high keris that have been trough strong persons hands
that keris may have more power than you think ever heard about an blood keris

Ben

David · 6th February 2007, 02:25 PM

I will take your statement one step further Amuk Murugul. You say "Everyone can believe what they like", but it is more that everyone does believe what they like. Belief is a very powerful thing which is key to shaping our own personal realities. And to a certain extent i believe that we each live within our own specific realities. Much of these personal realities overlap, but there will always be aspects of mine that don't work in yours and vice versa. I could discribe magickal events that have taken place in my life that most people would dismiss as fantasy. But as you say, "truth" CAN be stranger than fiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Well there is an keris in the Netherlands that break down your car
This can be verified if it have to be

It is interesting that most if not all of the stories we have heard here in regards to powerful keris ("evil" or otherwise) have been second and third hand accounts. And the details of these accounts have been very vague. I wonder if anyone here has any personal stories they might wish to share. As for verification Ben, i am curious how you can verify this car story or any other in this realm of experience. I don't say this to dismiss these stories out of hand, but merely to point out that these are all part of various people's personal realities. I have serious doubts that anyone can back up any of these stories with empirical proof. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't "true". If you can prove it i happen to know that a guy who calls himself The Amazing Randi has got a million dollar prize for you. James Randi is a stage magician and escape artist who is offerring the prize to anyone whop can prove metapyshical phenomenon.

Dajak · 6th February 2007, 02:53 PM

Hi David come to the Netherlands I will bring you to the owner you can try
see if it works I am like to see if something happends to your car you are driving than we now that the story s about this keris is true I don t gonna touch the keris but you and we will see if something happend

I was in Bali on vacation in june/july and met some one from Holland who breaks down the car after he did see the keris and had him in his hands

so let me now when you gonna visit en we take a look if something happend.

I like to now too

Ben

4th February 2007, 04:16 PM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David I am just warning what can happend to someone everyone is free to do what he like s Ben

4th February 2007, 09:16 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Just to make things clear; or perhaps i misunderstood what had been written, the warning is not from Dajak. I highly appreciate Dajak's comment.

4th February 2007, 11:10 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I've just read through this thread from beginning to end. I've decided not to contribute my opinions to this discussion, and after this post I will not be drawn. This post will probably be long and maybe a bit rambling, and at its conclusion there will be no answers, so if you're easily bored, click out now and forget what I will write. When I was 18 years old I was involved as a frequent visitor to a remote NSW country town. This was Australia, 1950's. The group of people I used to visit this town with formed a close association with the Kooris (Australian Aboriginals) living at the local mission station. I formed close friendships with a couple of these Koori people. The brother of one of the girls I knew there had transgressed tribal law, and the decision was taken to sing him. This is commonly known as "pointing the bone". He initially laughed it off and said that the old people couldn't touch him because he was modern and didn't believe in all that b/s. However, he did get sick, he went into hospital, they couldn't find anything wrong with him, he was transferred to a bigger hospital down on the coast. Some time after I got home I heard he had died. I have been playing with keris for a very long time. I don't know how many keris I've had through my hands. I do know that it exceeds 5000. I also know that during my entire life I cannot associate either one fortunate event, or one unfortunate event with any keris. Since I have been visiting Jawa I have been given a number of keris. I think that at the moment it totals 12 keris and tombak. The first one I was ever given was given to me simply because the owner liked me and could not be bothered looking after the keris. Subsequent events that affected the life of this man have caused a number of people to identify him giving me this keris, which was in fact his family keris, as the turning point in his life from being more or less fortunate to being more than a little unfortunate. Maybe the keris caused this. Or maybe his nature caused it. Believe what you will. Other keris and tombak have been given to me for similar reasons, that is, that the owners simply did not want the responsibility of looking after them. However a number of keris have come to me for blacker reasons. I have three keris that I accepted that were associated with death and misfortune. One in particular was reputed to have caused the deaths of at least 5 people, and the people who knew of it would not even touch it. When I accepted it I had to go a shed at the back of the house and remove it from under a pile of offerings that had been made by various dukuns. Now, none of these keris, no keris I have ever had in my possession has ever given me any bad feelings, nor raised hairs on the back of my neck, nor caused any mental disquiet. On the other hand, a number of keris I have had in my possession have given me feelings of warmth and comfort and ease of mind. Any feeling I have ever had from any keris has only been a feeling of peace, not of disquiet. And this includes a couple of keris that I have that two paranormals identified as being "evil". I have come to the conclusion that any evil, any good, any power or force that may be ---or may not be--- associated with any keris is absolutely and purely dependent upon the the human being involved, not upon the keris. I have heard an enormous number of keris stories, and even if only 1% of these stories were true, I think I would have to accept that in some cases, something happens that cannot be explained rationally.But nothing like this has ever happened with me. Now, coming back to Koori beliefs. A few years after my friend's brother died as a consequence of being sung, I met a man who had also been sung. This man had done something the tribal elders had decided could not go unpunished, so the decision was take to sing him. The difference this time was that the man who was sung had no Koori blood, but was of pure European descent. When he heard that he was being sung all he did was laugh at the "ignorant blackfellers" ( his words, not mine), and he felt no effect at all.I heard that he died a couple of years ago, he was in his nineties. Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter. Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

5th February 2007, 05:44 PM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Well there is an keris in the Netherlands that break down your car This can be verified if it have to be So I am not agree with you A.G. Maisey you based upon what your expirience are not what happend to other people based on true story s And take my word for it if the keris don t like you he can make you sick or let you die even if you don t believe in it . This has happend for real it is no funny story it is sad that some difficult are believing this that s why most people don t tell story s what happend to them and not talk about the subject But see if you can get books translated from H.W.M.J. Rijnders Stille krachten van de kris Geloven in bijgeloof Ben

5th February 2007, 06:39 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Ben, i think if you carefully reread what both Mr. Maisey and myself are saying you will see that neither of us necessarily disbelieve that these events can and do occur, nor do either of us find any of these events particularly funny. My question was not whether or not these things happen. Rather i am trying to get at the nature of the power and study just why it might have a effect on some people and not on others. Still, it seems to me that you are making these powers out to be somewhat omnipotent. I personally believe that these powers can, in fact must, serve a higher source. And if, as you say, a keris doesn't like me and makes me sick (which would seem odd to me since i care for it and feed it, therefore maintaining it's life) i always have the power to break it in pieces and throw it in the river or feed it back to the forge. I believe i am in essence more powerful than the keris. Now, if a keris is being used as a tool of black magick by another person against me that is another issue that would require a different approach. Then i am not just battling the will of the keris (if infact it has any), but the will of the other person as well. He may, in fact, be more powerful than i, but not his keris.

5th February 2007, 07:50 PM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David sorry for misunderstanding you but don t forget that the other person when he have an high keris that have been trough strong persons hands that keris may have more power than you think ever heard about an blood keris Ben

6th February 2007, 02:53 PM	#9
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David come to the Netherlands I will bring you to the owner you can try see if it works I am like to see if something happends to your car you are driving than we now that the story s about this keris is true I don t gonna touch the keris but you and we will see if something happend I was in Bali on vacation in june/july and met some one from Holland who breaks down the car after he did see the keris and had him in his hands so let me now when you gonna visit en we take a look if something happend. I like to now too Ben