Museum Nusantara

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David you might be better reading some books about the subject
there is more than only Islam or Christian things hard to understand if you never get in to it that why I don t write a lot about what happend to me and others.
If you use magic for good things it is white magic if you use it for bad things black magic.
Even in the Islam there is something like the devil
Ben

hmmm, interesting assumption Ben, that i haven't read any books on the subject...are there any English language books you might recommend?
I am well aware that there is more than only Islamic or Christian (or even Hindu) things and would be quite capable of understanding what may have happened to you or others if you were to share that information. The personal experience of you and others on this forum is something i am not likely to find in any books which is partly why i am raising these questions, to hear and try to understand what people here think.
I also tend to see the differences between white and black magick as a bit more complicated than you describe.
So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

[Dajak]

Hi David white magic is something like you use the power off the keris to make a sick person better , black magic you wanna make your enemy sick ( I now a person that is already death seeing doing this with an neighbour that did make some troubele with him he told and showed me how he did it with his favorit keris after he passed away his wife wanted me to geve the keris but I refused ) .

The best thing is the same advice Rasdan have don t try to get involved with those things not every one can handel these things
It don t have to be a keris it can be an mask an wayang puppet an spear
everything they can put an sole (don t now if this is the right translation off the worth) in it .

I don t now if there are english books about the subject Dutch a lot
there are even Dutch movie s about things that happend the call the silent power (Dutch name de stille kracht maybe also availble with enghlish language ) or an movie called the keris Pusaka based on true stories

An nice book called goena goena written by Helene Weski maybe availble in English

I have an pua from Borneo they used that when the Iban came back with heads to put them in there was an person at my house who is sensitive for things like that he get chicken skin and was shaking everytime he walk on the stairs where the pua was hanging

Ben

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by David

So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade. For instance, the pendawa lima is purely mythical characters before islam, when islam came, this 5 characters are said to represent the 5 pillars of Islam. The walis didnt want to take everything away from the Javanese people. They change the concept so that it suits Islamic needs. I assume this is also the case with keris. I think this is the turning point of the belalai gajah (perhaps representing Ganesha) starts to be called kembang kacang. And this is perhaps where the concept of a keris not being a weapon and the idea of Islamic phylosophy on keris parts started. I think belalai gajah is representing Ganesha since Buddha keris didnt have one. (Just my opinion with my limited knowledge)

However not all empu inserted just prayers. A lot (not nescessarily empus) still practice pre-islamic rituals until today. If you had a newly made keris, u can also put these entities in it. Thats why collectors who bought keris relying on vibrations can sometimes got cheated. They will age the keris to a certain tangguh and put entities that will transmit vibrations the new owner that they are from that tangguh. So, no way to run for collectors. Ultimately its our inteligence that beats everything. Afterall thats what differentiates us from these entities and animals.

Some remarks about the invading Dutch. I think the objective of negative entities are to make fellow countrymen killed each other or just cause fights and havoc. They are not interested helping you fighting a real war. Take puputan for an example. By the way, the Dutch had local allies that will reveal the tricks how to beat the entities.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

Rasdan, your comments so far have been helpful, but i am not trying to keep you personally (or anyone for that matter) in this discussion. If you feel you can't talk about these things, if you are feeling threadened, what ever, please feel free to drop out of the discussion. This will not, however, stop my own inquiry. Knowledge is power. Fear is failure.
I was not aware that you were only speaking of pre-Islamic beliefs and practices when discussing powerful keris. I have assumed that there are also many empu made keris or other pusaka that have been made in the Islamic tradition that are also considered to have "power". Islam has been the driving religious force in Indonesia for a fairly long time. Certainly i am aware that elements of the old world animistic pardigm still exist and that certain practices have remained, even if not quite out in the open.

Ben, thanks for your book suggestions. I will see if the title you recommend comes in English translation. Just so you understand, i have already read quite a lot on various magickal practices around the world, including books on Malay magickal practices. "Malay Magic" by Skeat and "The Malay Magician" by Winsedt provide some good information on magick in the Malay states. I am finding it difficult to find anything specifically of Jawa. "Visible and Invisible Realms" by Weiner and "Sekala and Niskala" by Eisman both give some interesting perspective into various practices on the mostly Hindu Bali.
Personally i would define white magick only as magick that is done in the service of the Creator. Black magick is anything that is done in the service of self. But there are many shades of gray here as well.
I am afraid that your suggestion that i leave this subject alone because not everyone can handle it is not acceptable to me. I appreciate you comments so far, but no one is holding you to this discussion. If it makes you feel uncomfortable i understand why you might not want to participate. As i stated before, my study of magick and it's practices around the world goes back far beyond my study of the keris. No one gains anything not discussing these matters. Superstitions, misunderstandings and fear only grow in our silences.

[Dajak]

Hi David I am just warning what can happend to someone everyone is free to do what he like s

Ben

[rasdan]

Just to make things clear; or perhaps i misunderstood what had been written, the warning is not from Dajak. I highly appreciate Dajak's comment.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've just read through this thread from beginning to end.

I've decided not to contribute my opinions to this discussion, and after this post I will not be drawn. This post will probably be long and maybe a bit rambling, and at its conclusion there will be no answers, so if you're easily bored, click out now and forget what I will write.

When I was 18 years old I was involved as a frequent visitor to a remote NSW country town. This was Australia, 1950's. The group of people I used to visit this town with formed a close association with the Kooris (Australian Aboriginals) living at the local mission station. I formed close friendships with a couple of these Koori people. The brother of one of the girls I knew there had transgressed tribal law, and the decision was taken to sing him. This is commonly known as "pointing the bone". He initially laughed it off and said that the old people couldn't touch him because he was modern and didn't believe in all that b/s. However, he did get sick, he went into hospital, they couldn't find anything wrong with him, he was transferred to a bigger hospital down on the coast. Some time after I got home I heard he had died.

I have been playing with keris for a very long time. I don't know how many keris I've had through my hands. I do know that it exceeds 5000. I also know that during my entire life I cannot associate either one fortunate event, or one unfortunate event with any keris.

Since I have been visiting Jawa I have been given a number of keris. I think that at the moment it totals 12 keris and tombak. The first one I was ever given was given to me simply because the owner liked me and could not be bothered looking after the keris. Subsequent events that affected the life of this man have caused a number of people to identify him giving me this keris, which was in fact his family keris, as the turning point in his life from being more or less fortunate to being more than a little unfortunate. Maybe the keris caused this. Or maybe his nature caused it. Believe what you will.

Other keris and tombak have been given to me for similar reasons, that is, that the owners simply did not want the responsibility of looking after them.
However a number of keris have come to me for blacker reasons.
I have three keris that I accepted that were associated with death and misfortune. One in particular was reputed to have caused the deaths of at least 5 people, and the people who knew of it would not even touch it. When I accepted it I had to go a shed at the back of the house and remove it from under a pile of offerings that had been made by various dukuns.

Now, none of these keris, no keris I have ever had in my possession has ever given me any bad feelings, nor raised hairs on the back of my neck, nor caused any mental disquiet.
On the other hand, a number of keris I have had in my possession have given me feelings of warmth and comfort and ease of mind. Any feeling I have ever had from any keris has only been a feeling of peace, not of disquiet.
And this includes a couple of keris that I have that two paranormals identified as being "evil".

I have come to the conclusion that any evil, any good, any power or force that may be ---or may not be--- associated with any keris is absolutely and purely dependent upon the the human being involved, not upon the keris.

I have heard an enormous number of keris stories, and even if only 1% of these stories were true, I think I would have to accept that in some cases, something happens that cannot be explained rationally.But nothing like this has ever happened with me.

Now, coming back to Koori beliefs.
A few years after my friend's brother died as a consequence of being sung, I met a man who had also been sung. This man had done something the tribal elders had decided could not go unpunished, so the decision was take to sing him. The difference this time was that the man who was sung had no Koori blood, but was of pure European descent. When he heard that he was being sung all he did was laugh at the "ignorant blackfellers" ( his words, not mine), and he felt no effect at all.I heard that he died a couple of years ago, he was in his nineties.

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

Very well said Alan, i think i am in 100% agreement with you. I have not handled anywhere near as many keris as you have. So far i have had very much the same experience though and i have never met a keris that i didn't like or thought was intrinsicly "evil". I am of the mind that certain keris are most definitely "alive", but my feeling is that the power involved is a neutral one. In other words, "Keris don't kill, people do!"
Every keris that comes into my possession, regardless of whether i sense any power from it or not or whether it is old or recently made is cleansed, feed and ritually dedicated to the path of service in the "geat work" to the creator. So far i have had no complaints from the keris.