Chinese Jian sword

John · 3rd February 2007, 04:59 PM

Ah, I remember this beautiful Jian Bill which looks as right as rain. Have kept those pictures. If I remember correctly, it's indeed from the same seller Kai Wee got his.

And Kai Wee, nice "duan" (short) Jian although I've not seen a scabbard as yours. I like the "fa guang" (shinny) look of blade and seems you're as good in removing rust in Jian as for keris. Also being a fan of "Wu Xia" movies, I've seen the movie you quoted. "...kuai san fen" eh?

Joe · 3rd February 2007, 09:56 PM

Unusual pieces flying about!

I've been looking at Chinese swords for years, and this is the first time I've seen a jian with a ring hilt. And with the guard, it becomes very mysterious, as these are two identical features on early 20th century dadao. Compare with the pic below.

As for a "war jians", they were usually very Spartan in their decorations. Here's a pic of one that was offered by an antique military arms dealer a couple years ago.

BluErf · 4th February 2007, 01:26 AM

Yep, pommel rings have always been associated with dadao, and I have never seen a second example of a jian with a pommel ring. A real puzzler, isn't it?

Another unusual point is that the guard, while bearing some similarities to the dadao's guard, it's made of iron, not brass, like nearly every other jian and dao I've seen.

The sheath and hilt of the jian is late 20th century - absolutely new. So I guess the maker of the sheath and hilt took a fair bit of artistic license in creating them. I think the only old parts were the blade and the iron guard. The rest must have perished. Judging from the iron guard which is bereft of any decorations, the lost old fittings could have been very spartan as well.

Apologies to Bill for hijacking the thread.

BluErf · 4th February 2007, 01:47 AM

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

Bill M · 4th February 2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

He called it --- no kidding --- "Crouching Tiger" or "Hidden Dragon" or "Tiger Hiding Behind the Crouching dragon" --- something like that. There was a movie that came out about when I got it.

He had some funny names. I always liked the idea of naming swords.

I had a good relationship with Alex, but bought one of his modern pieces on eBay and was not happy with it. I felt his quality was slipping. Returns sparked problems with his sister here in the USA.

This spawned me giving her a negative FB. One of the very few I have given. I felt it was necessary.

Lost touch with Alex.

He seemed to have a good heart for the Chinese sword.

BluErf · 4th February 2007, 01:00 PM

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Hmmm... somehow, when the Chinese names are translated into English, they sound tacky.

But they are quite beautiful in Chinese.

The state of antique Chinese jian and dao these days are quite sad. Most of the old pieces are neglected and rusted, and the best pieces are in museum or private collections in Taiwan. European museums hold the remainder. Not much left in China's own museums. And then we have the problem of fakes which became an industry centuries ago in China.

I emailed Alex earlier today to ask about the pommel ring in Chinese jian. He says that pommel rings were first found in Chinese Jian from the Han dynasty to the Ming dynasty. Pommel rings in dao became popular in the Qing dynasty.

There's a couple of links to a Chinese forum showing some jian with pommel ring, though more elaborate in design:

http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...%CD%AD%2Bwudao
[This link leads to thread on a bronze sword with a silver hilt with pommel ring. Discussion revolves around whether the hilt was original to the blade or added later on. Even with x-ray analysis, it was not conclusive. Some other pictures of another hilt with pommel ring (no blade) and a Han dynasty short jian with pommel ring.]

http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...B6%B7%C5%A3%2B
[This link leads to a thread on a Ming dynasty sword with a very elaborate pommel ring.]

Bill M · 4th February 2007, 02:05 PM

饕殄？

I did not think the names used by ALex to describe Chinese swords were tacky. I like them. I just could not remember what he called mine. Perhaps I should have said "fanciful" - "elaborate" - "grandiose" names instead of "funny." I meant no disrespect to Alex, the names, nor the swords.

Years ago I had regular email contact with Alex. I always liked him personally. Like I said, he has a great heart for the Chinese sword.

It is very sad about the state these wonderful swords have gotten to. Many countries do not have the heirlooms they once had. Heirlooms and regular well-loved general pieces have left their homelands. Particularly homelands that have lower economic bases than other countries. The higher end pieces, even the national treasures flow to the people with money.

I am also disturbed by the apparent fact that museums in the various homelands, do not care for the great pieces they DO have. Some allow good pieces to rust, forgotten in dusty basements and storage places.

At least most collectors take good care of their pieces even if fewer people can see them.

And I am not talking just about China. This is widespread.

Personally I am trying to find quality "homeland" museums that I would like to leave my pieces to when I pass on. This is not as easy as you might think. Sure there are big museums in Europe, UK, and USA, but how about Bali? Java? China? And Especially the Philippines?

The Jian that started this thread, even though the dress is a bit more elaborate than traditional should return to his homeland. But where?

The Moro pieces I post from time to time --- should return to their homeland. But where?

Who will take care of them and love them like I do? Who will display them as part of THEIR national heritage? My children? Hah! They would put everything on eBay. They have no interest in heritage.

Don't mean to hijack my own thread, but if some of you have some answers as to where my pieces can go, where they can return to their homelands, be displayed so others can enjoy them AND cared for as they should be, please PM me.

I hope this does not spark too many requests for birthdays and Christmas presents.

And let me add that I am not ready to start shipping pieces. Just drawing up my Will (and I am very healthy!)

3rd February 2007, 09:56 PM	#2
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Unusual pieces flying about! I've been looking at Chinese swords for years, and this is the first time I've seen a jian with a ring hilt. And with the guard, it becomes very mysterious, as these are two identical features on early 20th century dadao. Compare with the pic below. As for a "war jians", they were usually very Spartan in their decorations. Here's a pic of one that was offered by an antique military arms dealer a couple years ago. Attached Images

3rd February 2007, 04:59 PM	#1
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Ah, I remember this beautiful Jian Bill which looks as right as rain. Have kept those pictures. If I remember correctly, it's indeed from the same seller Kai Wee got his. And Kai Wee, nice "duan" (short) Jian although I've not seen a scabbard as yours. I like the "fa guang" (shinny) look of blade and seems you're as good in removing rust in Jian as for keris. Also being a fan of "Wu Xia" movies, I've seen the movie you quoted. "...kuai san fen" eh?

4th February 2007, 01:26 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, pommel rings have always been associated with dadao, and I have never seen a second example of a jian with a pommel ring. A real puzzler, isn't it? Another unusual point is that the guard, while bearing some similarities to the dadao's guard, it's made of iron, not brass, like nearly every other jian and dao I've seen. The sheath and hilt of the jian is late 20th century - absolutely new. So I guess the maker of the sheath and hilt took a fair bit of artistic license in creating them. I think the only old parts were the blade and the iron guard. The rest must have perished. Judging from the iron guard which is bereft of any decorations, the lost old fittings could have been very spartan as well. Apologies to Bill for hijacking the thread.

4th February 2007, 01:47 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Bill, By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

4th February 2007, 01:00 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Hmmm... somehow, when the Chinese names are translated into English, they sound tacky. But they are quite beautiful in Chinese. The state of antique Chinese jian and dao these days are quite sad. Most of the old pieces are neglected and rusted, and the best pieces are in museum or private collections in Taiwan. European museums hold the remainder. Not much left in China's own museums. And then we have the problem of fakes which became an industry centuries ago in China. I emailed Alex earlier today to ask about the pommel ring in Chinese jian. He says that pommel rings were first found in Chinese Jian from the Han dynasty to the Ming dynasty. Pommel rings in dao became popular in the Qing dynasty. There's a couple of links to a Chinese forum showing some jian with pommel ring, though more elaborate in design: http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...%CD%AD%2Bwudao [This link leads to thread on a bronze sword with a silver hilt with pommel ring. Discussion revolves around whether the hilt was original to the blade or added later on. Even with x-ray analysis, it was not conclusive. Some other pictures of another hilt with pommel ring (no blade) and a Han dynasty short jian with pommel ring.] http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...B6%B7%C5%A3%2B [This link leads to a thread on a Ming dynasty sword with a very elaborate pommel ring.]

4th February 2007, 02:05 PM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	饕殄？ I did not think the names used by ALex to describe Chinese swords were tacky. I like them. I just could not remember what he called mine. Perhaps I should have said "fanciful" - "elaborate" - "grandiose" names instead of "funny." I meant no disrespect to Alex, the names, nor the swords. Years ago I had regular email contact with Alex. I always liked him personally. Like I said, he has a great heart for the Chinese sword. It is very sad about the state these wonderful swords have gotten to. Many countries do not have the heirlooms they once had. Heirlooms and regular well-loved general pieces have left their homelands. Particularly homelands that have lower economic bases than other countries. The higher end pieces, even the national treasures flow to the people with money. I am also disturbed by the apparent fact that museums in the various homelands, do not care for the great pieces they DO have. Some allow good pieces to rust, forgotten in dusty basements and storage places. At least most collectors take good care of their pieces even if fewer people can see them. And I am not talking just about China. This is widespread. Personally I am trying to find quality "homeland" museums that I would like to leave my pieces to when I pass on. This is not as easy as you might think. Sure there are big museums in Europe, UK, and USA, but how about Bali? Java? China? And Especially the Philippines? The Jian that started this thread, even though the dress is a bit more elaborate than traditional should return to his homeland. But where? The Moro pieces I post from time to time --- should return to their homeland. But where? Who will take care of them and love them like I do? Who will display them as part of THEIR national heritage? My children? Hah! They would put everything on eBay. They have no interest in heritage. Don't mean to hijack my own thread, but if some of you have some answers as to where my pieces can go, where they can return to their homelands, be displayed so others can enjoy them AND cared for as they should be, please PM me. I hope this does not spark too many requests for birthdays and Christmas presents. And let me add that I am not ready to start shipping pieces. Just drawing up my Will (and I am very healthy!)