About the Dussäge

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 02:24 AM

Closest thing I could find in Stone is "Dusack, Dussack: of Hungarian or Behemian origin...soon adopted throughout Germany by the middle and lower classes as an excellent weapon...single piece of iron, one part of which was fashioned into a cutlass blade..."
This sounds like it, but no pictures...

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 03:18 AM

A quick google search turns up a lot about the dussack - apparently also known as dusägge - but none of the pics and woodcuts so far look anything like the kilij I saw the my museum

Maybe this is the same old error of labelling ottoman/islamic swords as miscelaneous scimitars...
Any comments/pics would be most appreciated
Emanuel

Marc · 18th January 2007, 10:54 AM

I know the one you mean. It’s beautiful.

"Dussack", "Dussäge"... is quite used, generically, to describe short, curved swords of centre-north European origin from about 15th - 18th c., as well as the training instruments utilised to learn its use.. Many featured a yelman of sorts, and can be related to what later was known as a "cutlass". To find pieces similar to the one you saw, though, you may have better luck searching for "Sinclair Sabre" or Saber. This is how many of those were labelled by the XIX c. collectors/academics due to a spurious history that linked the spread of those in Europe to a Scottish mercenary and his men, who were allegedly defeated in an ambush in Norway. The story goes saying that from the basket-hilts that were taken as spoils of that battle by the victors, this typology emerged. The anecdote is indeed spurious, as are many of the early typological justifications put forth with dismaying easiness by quite a number of those who studied Arms and armour in the 19th. c., but the name, as so many others, stuck, and have survived up to our days, for the desperation of some.

Of course, if one wants to keep a bit of seriousness in the study, has to know the facts and discard the adornments, but, in this case, as many others, I can't help but thinking that, as the Italians say, "se non è vero, è ben trovato" (loosely, "Even if it's not true, it is well conceived").

A couple pics, from around the web:

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 03:04 PM

Hello Mark,
The dussäge at the museum was indeed also described as a "SInclair Sword" and a short synopsys was given about his ficticious incursion through Norway into Sweden.
Thanks for the pics, the second/bottom one is closest to what I saw, but still not the same. The one at the ROM was much more curved and the yelman was very well defined. The blade was somewhat narrower as well, and -not too sure- but it seemed a bit thin as well.
I will go again in June and take pictures to post.
Emanuel

Joe · 18th January 2007, 11:14 PM

Something like this?

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2007, 02:05 AM

Beautifully written and outstanding information Marc!!!
Joe, fantastic example!
Now here lies the true origins of the Scottish basket hilt, and interestingly there are examples with curved blades, usually termed 'turcael' referring to the curved Turkish blades often seen by Highlander mercenaries in Eastern Europe. Naturally there remains considerable debate on the basket hilt origin issue, but the highly developed hilts on the guards of the so called 'Sinclair' sabres from Northern Europe seem the most plausible ancestor in my opinion.

From what I understand , the term dusagge (dusack) although originally applied to very pedestrian peasant swords, and training swords.As fencing with these developed, the term began to be applied to various heavy, short sabres and as noted cutlasses.

It would appear that terminology applied locally to certain weapons can often be expanded colloquially to a wider range of similar type weapons as the terms diffuse via trade, transliteration and travellers. Because of this it can often become maddening to try to categorize a particular weapon to a specific term

as the same weapon may be referred to by very different terms in various places where found. I hope I said that right

!

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 19th January 2007, 03:48 AM

Good one Joe!

It looks just like what I saw. Jim, the turcael would most certainly be kilij sabres no? If so this presents a clear path in my mind of the way in which Islamic and Persian curved sabres became the unidentified scimitar of western European literature and art. I always wanted to see actual examples being seen and eventually duplicated by Europeans...before Napoleon and Brits popularized Mamluk sabres, and eastern European Hussars and misc cavalry units introduced their own forms.

It's quite amazing to see this kilif form being adopted and further adapted to European uses and shapes.

Many thanks all of you!
Emanuel

18th January 2007, 11:14 PM	#5
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Something like this? Attached Images

18th January 2007, 02:24 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Closest thing I could find in Stone is "Dusack, Dussack: of Hungarian or Behemian origin...soon adopted throughout Germany by the middle and lower classes as an excellent weapon...single piece of iron, one part of which was fashioned into a cutlass blade..." This sounds like it, but no pictures...

18th January 2007, 03:18 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A quick google search turns up a lot about the dussack - apparently also known as dusägge - but none of the pics and woodcuts so far look anything like the kilij I saw the my museum Maybe this is the same old error of labelling ottoman/islamic swords as miscelaneous scimitars... Any comments/pics would be most appreciated Emanuel

18th January 2007, 10:54 AM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I know the one you mean. It’s beautiful. "Dussack", "Dussäge"... is quite used, generically, to describe short, curved swords of centre-north European origin from about 15th - 18th c., as well as the training instruments utilised to learn its use.. Many featured a yelman of sorts, and can be related to what later was known as a "cutlass". To find pieces similar to the one you saw, though, you may have better luck searching for "Sinclair Sabre" or Saber. This is how many of those were labelled by the XIX c. collectors/academics due to a spurious history that linked the spread of those in Europe to a Scottish mercenary and his men, who were allegedly defeated in an ambush in Norway. The story goes saying that from the basket-hilts that were taken as spoils of that battle by the victors, this typology emerged. The anecdote is indeed spurious, as are many of the early typological justifications put forth with dismaying easiness by quite a number of those who studied Arms and armour in the 19th. c., but the name, as so many others, stuck, and have survived up to our days, for the desperation of some. Of course, if one wants to keep a bit of seriousness in the study, has to know the facts and discard the adornments, but, in this case, as many others, I can't help but thinking that, as the Italians say, "se non è vero, è ben trovato" (loosely, "Even if it's not true, it is well conceived"). A couple pics, from around the web:

18th January 2007, 03:04 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Mark, The dussäge at the museum was indeed also described as a "SInclair Sword" and a short synopsys was given about his ficticious incursion through Norway into Sweden. Thanks for the pics, the second/bottom one is closest to what I saw, but still not the same. The one at the ROM was much more curved and the yelman was very well defined. The blade was somewhat narrower as well, and -not too sure- but it seemed a bit thin as well. I will go again in June and take pictures to post. Emanuel

19th January 2007, 02:05 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Beautifully written and outstanding information Marc!!! Joe, fantastic example! Now here lies the true origins of the Scottish basket hilt, and interestingly there are examples with curved blades, usually termed 'turcael' referring to the curved Turkish blades often seen by Highlander mercenaries in Eastern Europe. Naturally there remains considerable debate on the basket hilt origin issue, but the highly developed hilts on the guards of the so called 'Sinclair' sabres from Northern Europe seem the most plausible ancestor in my opinion. From what I understand , the term dusagge (dusack) although originally applied to very pedestrian peasant swords, and training swords.As fencing with these developed, the term began to be applied to various heavy, short sabres and as noted cutlasses. It would appear that terminology applied locally to certain weapons can often be expanded colloquially to a wider range of similar type weapons as the terms diffuse via trade, transliteration and travellers. Because of this it can often become maddening to try to categorize a particular weapon to a specific term as the same weapon may be referred to by very different terms in various places where found. I hope I said that right ! Best regards, Jim

19th January 2007, 03:48 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Good one Joe! It looks just like what I saw. Jim, the turcael would most certainly be kilij sabres no? If so this presents a clear path in my mind of the way in which Islamic and Persian curved sabres became the unidentified scimitar of western European literature and art. I always wanted to see actual examples being seen and eventually duplicated by Europeans...before Napoleon and Brits popularized Mamluk sabres, and eastern European Hussars and misc cavalry units introduced their own forms. It's quite amazing to see this kilif form being adopted and further adapted to European uses and shapes. Many thanks all of you! Emanuel