Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

[VANDOO]

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

Thankyou Vandoo that is a great suggestion. Someting solid at last!

By any chance do you have the name of the museam?


Spiral

[VANDOO]

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK
GOOD LUCK

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK
GOOD LUCK

Once again thankyou again Vandoo! Your constructive help is most appreciated.

I will visit this year indeed. It also gives me the excuse to visit a friend that is overdue.

Cheers,

Spiral

[katana]

Hi Spiral,
I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this.

However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story.


Hunting sword, ca. 1851
French (Paris)
Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm)

hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s.
The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane.

From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

Certnley , I just pointed it out about the quashing to save anyone misunderstanding.

Of course I would like my Opinion verified!

But I would be happy to have verification of exactly what it is even if it is a suggested by some either 19th century Franklin Mint or indeed A notre Damn tourist dagger!

The TRUTH is what matters!

But this piece seems to have generated such intrest that I am rather shocked, but this thread has at least prooved the rarity of such pieces.

Sure I continue to point that out in the face of some of the comments & oppinions I have read throughout this thread.

The general discusian itself has been intresting, as well, & thankyou for your input & rest assured if I ever find Kriss your one of the expierienced peoples opinions I would first seek.

Spiral