Wehrmacht officers dagger

Philip · 13th January 2007, 02:03 AM

I liked your definition on the other thread, but how about summarizing it and putting it in a "sticky" at the top of the Ethno board to remind us all?

I agree with Charles and some others that inclusion of any threads dealing with regulation-pattern military weapons, the products of Western or modernized
Asian factory systems, might dilute the unique ethnographic focus of this discussion board, and since there are other fora out there that devote themselves to such topics, the aficionadoes of these arms are in no wise being deprived if the subject matter is considered OT in this venue.

However, I relish the occasional inclusion of discussions of European blades (even if ex-military or exported-for-profit) since quite a few of these turn up hilted in African, Native American, and Asiatic fittings. It might be a case of intellectual inconsistency on my part, so I am girding for any potential tomatoes and dead cabbages flung in my direction.

fenlander · 13th January 2007, 05:41 AM

According to the dictionary.

eth·nog·ra·phy
–noun a branch of anthropology dealing with the scientific description of individual cultures.
[Origin: 1825–35; ethno- + -graphy]

According to the above definition.
I think European military swords fall well inside the descirption "Ethnographic arms and armour". Unless Europe has no culture!
However I think perhaps the forum should have a definition for the moderator's term of "ethnography".
A Germanic sword may help to shed light on a very small part of German culture. Just like a Mexican sword may help describe something about Mexican culture. No difference as far as I can see. I could be wrong though (not the first time) so enlighten me as to where this is incorrect ( i will sit under a tree).

Philip · 13th January 2007, 06:25 AM

Fenlander, I agree with your premise. But why not let the forum moderators come forward with an official policy containing the parameters if they think it desireable. I still think that posting it as a "sticky" is a good idea.

I suppose that Europe is already represented after a fact on the appropriate discussion board attached to this venue. However, I realize that some of the blades that we might find interesting in a certain context, such as Genoese saber blades with "eyelash" marks in Indian talwar hilts, won't fit into the "medieval" time frame either. A certain amount of flexibility and balanced judgement on the part of all us participants should forestall any "problems" of scope and interpretation.

M ELEY · 13th January 2007, 04:24 PM

I walk the line on this argument. While it would be sad to have this forum over-run with qustions on M1860 Ames cavalry sabers and British infantry swords, I believe that a smattering of them now and again reminds us of how ethnographic pieces affected the west and vice-versa. As someone has already pointed out, there a very specific sites for American civil war swords, for example. That being said, it is rather hard to strictly define what constitutes "ethnographic", especially based on one's own culture and perspective. We have had great discussions here on Romanian swords, Scottish basket hilts, colonial Spanish weapons, and "pirate" weapons in the past. With this open style, I think we all have learned for the better. If a forumite is completely dis-interested in Euro weapons, they can ignore the thread. Likewise, if there is an individual who inundates this site with a ton of such swords, their questions will undoubtedly be ignored for lack of interest or knowledge and they will go away. In brief, leave it like it is, but I am for a policy that more broadly defines ethno pieces to ones not mass-produced industrially. In this way, an unidentified dagger that turns out to be a Confederate bowie (and not a Philippine bolo, as many Confed pieces really turn out to be) can still generate fascinating discussions on form, use, etc. My 2 cents...

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 05:03 PM

I COULD BE WRONG BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE FORUM WILL NOT BE SMOTHERED IN INQUIRES ABOUT SUCH WEAPONS. WE USED TO HAVE A SEPARATE CATAGORY FOR EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR ON THE FORUM AND IT LANGUISHED AWAY WITH SO FEW POSTS THAT IT WAS DISCONTINUED.

PERHAPS A STICKY WITH LINKS TO SITES DEALING WITH, GERMAN WEAPONS OLD AND NEW, JAPANESE, AMERICAN, ENGLISH,FRENCH,RUSSIAN, MIDEVEL, ECT. THAT WOULD GIVE POTENTIAL POSTERS A MORE SPECIFIC REFRENCE ON WHERE TO LOOK FOR THE KNOWLEGE THEY SEEK.

Philip · 13th January 2007, 08:06 PM

Mr. Eley
I would tend to think that most of us would stand by your view on the matter. General guidelines are fine, but insistence on dogmatic adherence immutable commandments, and the inevitable catfights that can result, are what we want to avoid. So far, I haven't seen this forum being "flooded" with posts dealing with bayonets, American Civil War sabers, or fraternal lodge swords so I think that we're doing just fine.

fernando · 13th January 2007, 09:11 PM

It looks like it is rather dificult to define in a sticky what is an ethnographic weapon without being arbitrarian or controversial. From what i see in the dictionaries, the term is more comprehensive than some wish to put it. It seems not to be necessarily rustic, or handcraft, but rather relative to Peoples customs habits and differences, in a general manner. As already aproached here, what is vulgar for an Arab, could be exotic for an European, and vice versa. A good nazi sword ( not the cheap stuff ) is so culturally interesting as a dha or a kris, or any other item often discussed here ... unless this is a restricted Forum, which is not the case, so far. It is impossible that weapons are not allways intrinsecally relative to religious or politic situations. But for what it matters in collecting, such implication deflects over the cuirasse of our indiference. As also aproached here, if a guy keeps posting specimens that do not belong to the general taste of the members, will soon be abandoned due to lack of interest ( that could well be my case ). But it should ( could ) be kept in mind that not all members limit their collections to only edged weapons, of only one or two types. I think this Forum is also open for general variety and general culture, and not just for speciality and scholarship in determined items. Let you not create an atmosphere where one is "afraid" to post images of a specimen, because it might not fall within the "selected" items.
The attached is a nice officer's parade saber, apparently made in the Wheimar period, later beautifully hand engraved and reintegrated in the the Nazi period, according to the backing history i had with it, when i bought in a local antiquarian.
fernando

13th January 2007, 02:03 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Mark, how about a suggestion? I liked your definition on the other thread, but how about summarizing it and putting it in a "sticky" at the top of the Ethno board to remind us all? I agree with Charles and some others that inclusion of any threads dealing with regulation-pattern military weapons, the products of Western or modernized Asian factory systems, might dilute the unique ethnographic focus of this discussion board, and since there are other fora out there that devote themselves to such topics, the aficionadoes of these arms are in no wise being deprived if the subject matter is considered OT in this venue. However, I relish the occasional inclusion of discussions of European blades (even if ex-military or exported-for-profit) since quite a few of these turn up hilted in African, Native American, and Asiatic fittings. It might be a case of intellectual inconsistency on my part, so I am girding for any potential tomatoes and dead cabbages flung in my direction.

13th January 2007, 06:25 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	You have a point Fenlander, I agree with your premise. But why not let the forum moderators come forward with an official policy containing the parameters if they think it desireable. I still think that posting it as a "sticky" is a good idea. I suppose that Europe is already represented after a fact on the appropriate discussion board attached to this venue. However, I realize that some of the blades that we might find interesting in a certain context, such as Genoese saber blades with "eyelash" marks in Indian talwar hilts, won't fit into the "medieval" time frame either. A certain amount of flexibility and balanced judgement on the part of all us participants should forestall any "problems" of scope and interpretation.

13th January 2007, 09:11 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	catharsis It looks like it is rather dificult to define in a sticky what is an ethnographic weapon without being arbitrarian or controversial. From what i see in the dictionaries, the term is more comprehensive than some wish to put it. It seems not to be necessarily rustic, or handcraft, but rather relative to Peoples customs habits and differences, in a general manner. As already aproached here, what is vulgar for an Arab, could be exotic for an European, and vice versa. A good nazi sword ( not the cheap stuff ) is so culturally interesting as a dha or a kris, or any other item often discussed here ... unless this is a restricted Forum, which is not the case, so far. It is impossible that weapons are not allways intrinsecally relative to religious or politic situations. But for what it matters in collecting, such implication deflects over the cuirasse of our indiference. As also aproached here, if a guy keeps posting specimens that do not belong to the general taste of the members, will soon be abandoned due to lack of interest ( that could well be my case ). But it should ( could ) be kept in mind that not all members limit their collections to only edged weapons, of only one or two types. I think this Forum is also open for general variety and general culture, and not just for speciality and scholarship in determined items. Let you not create an atmosphere where one is "afraid" to post images of a specimen, because it might not fall within the "selected" items. The attached is a nice officer's parade saber, apparently made in the Wheimar period, later beautifully hand engraved and reintegrated in the the Nazi period, according to the backing history i had with it, when i bought in a local antiquarian. fernando Attached Images

13th January 2007, 05:41 AM	#2
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	According to the dictionary. eth·nog·ra·phy –noun a branch of anthropology dealing with the scientific description of individual cultures. [Origin: 1825–35; ethno- + -graphy] According to the above definition. I think European military swords fall well inside the descirption "Ethnographic arms and armour". Unless Europe has no culture! However I think perhaps the forum should have a definition for the moderator's term of "ethnography". A Germanic sword may help to shed light on a very small part of German culture. Just like a Mexican sword may help describe something about Mexican culture. No difference as far as I can see. I could be wrong though (not the first time) so enlighten me as to where this is incorrect ( i will sit under a tree).

13th January 2007, 04:24 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	I walk the line on this argument. While it would be sad to have this forum over-run with qustions on M1860 Ames cavalry sabers and British infantry swords, I believe that a smattering of them now and again reminds us of how ethnographic pieces affected the west and vice-versa. As someone has already pointed out, there a very specific sites for American civil war swords, for example. That being said, it is rather hard to strictly define what constitutes "ethnographic", especially based on one's own culture and perspective. We have had great discussions here on Romanian swords, Scottish basket hilts, colonial Spanish weapons, and "pirate" weapons in the past. With this open style, I think we all have learned for the better. If a forumite is completely dis-interested in Euro weapons, they can ignore the thread. Likewise, if there is an individual who inundates this site with a ton of such swords, their questions will undoubtedly be ignored for lack of interest or knowledge and they will go away. In brief, leave it like it is, but I am for a policy that more broadly defines ethno pieces to ones not mass-produced industrially. In this way, an unidentified dagger that turns out to be a Confederate bowie (and not a Philippine bolo, as many Confed pieces really turn out to be) can still generate fascinating discussions on form, use, etc. My 2 cents...

13th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I COULD BE WRONG BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE FORUM WILL NOT BE SMOTHERED IN INQUIRES ABOUT SUCH WEAPONS. WE USED TO HAVE A SEPARATE CATAGORY FOR EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR ON THE FORUM AND IT LANGUISHED AWAY WITH SO FEW POSTS THAT IT WAS DISCONTINUED. PERHAPS A STICKY WITH LINKS TO SITES DEALING WITH, GERMAN WEAPONS OLD AND NEW, JAPANESE, AMERICAN, ENGLISH,FRENCH,RUSSIAN, MIDEVEL, ECT. THAT WOULD GIVE POTENTIAL POSTERS A MORE SPECIFIC REFRENCE ON WHERE TO LOOK FOR THE KNOWLEGE THEY SEEK.

13th January 2007, 08:06 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Mr. Eley I would tend to think that most of us would stand by your view on the matter. General guidelines are fine, but insistence on dogmatic adherence immutable commandments, and the inevitable catfights that can result, are what we want to avoid. So far, I haven't seen this forum being "flooded" with posts dealing with bayonets, American Civil War sabers, or fraternal lodge swords so I think that we're doing just fine.