Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 09:55 AM

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too

. No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 11:54 AM

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell

I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell

I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

Tim I am sure as you say you have made many mistakes in your purchases, as you say I have seen you post some here & if you read "The art of Rhinocerous horn carving in China " by Jan Chapman you may possibly spot another couple you havent yet realised.

I must have been much luckier to date or do more reserch on most things I collect. {The first year or two of my arms collecting I made varois errors due to lack of expierence , knowledge & research etc. that what taught me the value of research, evidence & expert oppinion rather than "joe bloggs" opinion.

If this ever turns out to be a typicle example of a non occult 19th centry piece, with its cast figural handle & scabbard, I will still be delighted to keep it. It is the piece itself I appreciate.

i doubt if I will ever see another such piece. This thread prooves its rarity.

& After all I picked it up for a mere 12 portions of fish & chips & curry sauce.

its amazing what one can find for peanuts sometimes.

I wonder if you could cast & chase a one piece scabbard like that? using 19th century technology? or is 19th century "fracklin mint" rather tricker if you put your proffesional head on?

I worked in casting as a youth, before deciding to move on to other feilds that I find more, spiritualy,intelectualy & indeed socialy rewarding.

But I did enjoy it at the time.

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too

. No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Spiral

wolviex · 11th January 2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:50 PM

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Emanuel · 11th January 2007, 08:57 PM

I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?

The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong...
Emanuel

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way

Emanuel

Empircal evidence shown by me , so far demonstrates that European figural knives of the 19th century are veiwed handle upright.

Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded.

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 09:01 PM

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2007, 09:14 PM

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

Andrew · 11th January 2007, 09:58 PM

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

Thankyou Andrew, I hope nobody takes any of this too deeply, it is just my quest to find someone with some actual expieriance or empirical evidence of these cast, 19th century european daggers.

I live in hope. or as satanists say.

"The devill made me do it"

Spiral

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

I respect your descion.

In life I try to communicte & indeed deal with each individul in the manner or type of speach or attitiude shown to me.

This can assist some founding freindships & destroy jobs. {"supierors" dont always like it.}

Always tricker via internet as we already know.

Easier in a pub with a pint.

Take care,

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2007, 12:50 AM

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

spiral · 11th January 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy

.}

But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?

Spiral

katana · 11th January 2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy

.}
But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?

Spiral

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

Bill M · 11th January 2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

As I understand it the swastica was a Tibetan symbol, long before Adolph H. came on the scene. It typically depicts a wheel turning in a life enhancing clockwise direction with sparks flying off.

Hitler was accused of using this symbol turning in a counter-clockwise direction meaning anti-life. While this is possible, Tibetans used it both ways, though usual was clockwise.

There was some speculation that Hitler's power, and his charisma was VERY powerful, was enhanced by teachings by G. I. Gurdjieff who studied in Tibet and that the swastica was one of his power symbols.

Also red, black and white are the common three colors used in many animistic societies indicating the High Kingdom (White) the earth plane (red) and the lower world (black - sometimes blue, but usually black).

My point is again that symbolism both a cultural and personal. Depending on your point of view.

Still there is something that reaches a universal depth. Karl Jung had some interesting ideas there, but this is not the Forum for me to continue these musings........

Missed katana's link before. Good stuff there. [reason to edit]

spiral · 11th January 2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

I understood your post.

I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect.

After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before.

If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence.

Thankyou.

Spiral

11th January 2007, 09:55 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger. SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because: - this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions - I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here. - CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense! - The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it. - You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like! On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism! For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then. The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process. Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers Attached Images

11th January 2007, 08:50 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A thought What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like. So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it. I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way Emanuel

11th January 2007, 08:57 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one... I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way? The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong... Emanuel

11th January 2007, 09:01 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!! For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link.... http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html Attached Images

12th January 2007, 12:50 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary. Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor. In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them. This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand. In all, a very exhilerating thread! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th January 2007 at 03:46 AM.

11th January 2007, 11:54 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

11th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.

11th January 2007, 09:58 PM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It must be a full moon... Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium. Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.