Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

[David]

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

[Tim Simmons]

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.



And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.



And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

Your realy cluthching at straws now Tim!

Show me some figural knives from this period, with satanic, christian or any other symbolism on them so we can have a serious discusian.


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

[Tim Simmons]

This German glass chalice "for sacrificial blood" Bavaria 1855 has many of the elements seen in the knife that started the thread. It could be seen as a touch subversive which indeed may well have been the intentional edge to the piece, if one is to bring to mind the rather stifling muscular church influence on life.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

Thankyou Tim that is nearer the mark. More detail would be nice.

Can you tell me whether there was any differance in the style of the 19th century casters from Germany & France? or would thier work be identical?

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

I always find your veiws & opinions on evry item I have ever posted Tim, highly entertaining. thankyou for that.

i would be very concerned if you thought it looked like anything i thought it was.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really.
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe.

I agree with much of what you say. Particularily "I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. "

I was reading Colin Wilsons stuff 30 years ago muyself, & much sinse but I have only been researching this for 6 weeks.

Its intresting some satanists & collectors of these see the owl as Moloch & you saw it as the owl of wisdom.

Indeed so much is open to interpritation.

Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by David

The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.

You bring up a very good point here and that is that many of the symbols seen in modern religion ( Christian or Satanic ) and modern societal use pre-date Christianity. The fish used by christianity supposedly before the cross and still into today is also a very ancient symbol used by other religions, such as Buddhists and Pagans. At the risk of upsetting some ( and I am Roman Catholic so I understand how some could be upset by this I hope they will not ) there are parrallels between parts of the mass and the pagan rituals that the church often knowing adopted to help with getting conversions. Aristaeus , from Greek Mythology, son of the god Apollo and the nymph Cyrene, was often represented as a youthful shepherd carrying a lamb. The head of the fish forming a mitre above the head of a man, was used to represent the fish god Dagon, Some attribute the mitre which the Pope wears to beginning here. A dove, sometimes with an olive branch in its mouth, which is supposed to represent peace or the Holy Spirit today, and which supposedly was taken from either the story of when Noah sent the dove from the ark and it came back with the olive twig; or the Dove descending on Christ at His baptism, before that it represented Juno, the queen of heaven. Even the cross can be seen used in other religions. I believe there are crosses as Hindu symbolism, in Babylon they were used to represent the worship of sun gods and some say it was not until Emperor Constantine that they were used for christianity. The upside down cross often again associated with satanism is in some circles called Peter's cross as St. Peter is said to have been crucified upside down

So again to get to the point I was speaking of before rambling. All symbolism, including or perhaps particularly that on weapons can and will be interpreted differently by different groups based on their context. We may not be able to establish the context or the symbolism until we know why and when the knife was made and we may not be able to tell where and why it was made until we understand the symbolism. Indeed a problem

Originally Posted by David

Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments.

There is also no question this is true. Such accusations were widely abused because the person was always guilty until proven innocent , which was difficult to do.


BTW to everyone here on all sides of this discussion ( Satanic, Pagan and Hunchback of Notre Dame) I must say a great job of debating the case is being done on all sides.


Spiral
IMHO the way the blade is attached would again point towards this being a ritual or decorative item and never really designed for much use.

[Emanuel]

Wouldn't that strange construction exclude use as a weapon - sacrificial or otherwise? The short fillet wouldn't hold the blade too well in a stab would it? In my mind this adds to the possibility of the dagger being an artistic/decorative object...or if intended for some cult ceremony then certainly only for show, not use? Do you know hoe the other daggers you posted were constructed?
I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

[spiral]

Well most satanic knives are made of recycled or older blades. perhaps they already carried the symbolism as a used weapon?

The threading into the blade is incredibly tight & would certanly not be weakend by a couple of ribs. it is a short tang but locks up incredibly solid.

sure it wouldnt last years of wood chopping but a direct stab, {as all daggers & bayonets are designed for} wouldnt be a problem.

its steel threaded into steel on a 6mm diameter bar. 8mm deep I think an engineer could point out that that is a fairly strong fixing for a dagger.


i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.

even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!



Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by spiral

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.
even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!
Spiral

I don't reject satanic daggers having been around and it makes sense to me since the dagger is used in so many different cultural rituals that it too would be used in satanic ones. I do think they would have been very covert items as simply being in the vicinity of one could be cause for execution as a heretic.

I said above I believe there is historical evidence of satanic cults. I agree with David that the accounts were probably exaggerated and the accusations were abused. Those actually involved may have been the ones seeming most pious to their neighbors. Think about when a criminal is caught today and the neighbors talk about how they were always quiet and never caused issues or problems.

I am however open to debate on what the true meaning of the symbols on this dagger are

[spiral]

Agreed!

So am I, but lets face it with 20 odd naysyers it wouldnt be much of a discusian if i didnt at least play devils advocate.

Evidence is usefull , conjecture when informed is as well.

Opinions, based on upbringing whether mine or yours, are quite worthless as thats all they are. Especialy if faith becomes involved.


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.l

Well this is the crux of the matter for me. You say "satanists or whatever they may be called". Once the church gained enough power to rule over large groups of people there most probably arose opposition to their power. The church certainly would consider these people satanist. But they also considered practitioners of any pagan religion satanists. Yet these people were not satanists, that is to say their god or gods were not satan. Certainly these people used knives, but there is not much evidence that they used them in any particular non-Christian rituals. As i mentioned earlier, the dagger as a ritual tool does not really come into mode until relatively recent times, that is, the 19thC. Sure, perhaps a knife would be used in an animal sacrifice, but if this were done in the context of some pagan rite it is unlikely that a knife would be created with such obvious pagan symbolism as to possibly bring down the wrath on the inquisition if such an item were found. Pagans of old were common people who used common tools in ritual ways when it was called for. I have serious doubts that there was much human sacrifice going in Christian Europe, unless, of course, you count the witch burnings and the Albigensian Crusade ("Kill them all...God will know his own"). So i think there is a reason why knives such as these don't seem to appear until the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Age of Enlightenment. At this time many sercet societies were forming. To the common god-fearing Christian they may have appeared "satanic", but i doubt many of them were. Some, perhaps. There is nothing on any of these knives that couldn't be used by some esorteric mystical lodge whose beliefs, in essence may have even been Christian. Skull and cross bones, snakes,owls images of Pan, none of these point to a satanic origin. ALL of them could be used by a satanist, but so could church regalia if used in a disrespectful manner.
I certainly believe many of these daggers have an occult origin and significance. My argument is that they should not be called "satanic". I suggest "occult dagger" instead. That being said, i would still vote for the "Hunchback" story in regards to your dagger Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with David, perhaps the term 'occult' would be a much better 'working description' for studying these daggers employed ceremonially by certain groups, referring to the athame of course.
In the case of Spiral's dagger, I am inclined to agree that it is most likely a 19th century theme dagger that reflects the same literary inspiration seen in the early Swiss daggers referenced in my earlier post. The Victorian period is well known for heightened romanticism of this nature and the popularization of 'Gothic literature' . On that note, I very much like the literary detection done by Katana! I am quite convinced that Yannis' observation of the depiction of Esmeralda on this dagger is correct and extremely astute!

I also think that this thread has become extremely interesting, especially since much of the ritual and ceremonial use of the 'athame' corresponds with the metaphysical aspects of certain weapons of this type in numerous cultures, with the Tibetan 'phurbu' as an example. In this sense I think these daggers, despite somewhat sinister associations as interpreted may well be considered worthy of discussion in ethnographic perspective. I also think that the impressive posts that everyone has placed on this thread reveals the comprehensive knowledge of the membership here on even the most esoteric topics and begs to differ with the question of whether this dagger should have been posted on an ethnographic forum....and I am very glad that Spiral did post it here!
Excellent thread guys!!

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

I would guess its original blade as a sword was nearer 18 inches? I think that would be right for a 16th century swiss Baselard?

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

Yes indeed it does Emanuel if you look at the photos again you will see some with visor open, some closed.

Spiral