Timor slingshot?

katana · 6th January 2007, 08:08 PM

Found this ....
In West African, several cultures, especially the Baule and the Lobi use slingshots. Primarily they are used by young boys to frighten away birds from the crops, such as when the family's millet is ripening. They are also used to hunt small animals such as lizards, frogs, birds and bats. They are also used to occasionally scare off predators as well as for play, (it is common for the boys to hold competitions to see you can hit the farthest milk can. Traditionally gut straps and leather were used, however today used bicycle inner tubes are often employed for the slingshot portion. As the climate in West Africa is quite dry, most times these have rotted away and only the carved wooden handle remains.

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2007, 09:14 PM

Well there we are, a catapult.

nKante · 6th January 2007, 10:01 PM

So that is what a modern sling shot looks like. I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali. What were the traditional strappings?
Could it have been fired using a whip motion? Picture a mini lacross stick. Then when elastic bands were discovered the same tool could be converted into a stationary launcher. Just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

katana · 6th January 2007, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nKante

I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali.

Hi nKante, they would have used the sling (as above) , even Alexanda the Great had professional sling-ers in his army. Very accurate and deadly in skilled hands. The catapult/ slingshot could fire the same projectiles but not at such velocity but was accurate in less skilled hands.

Bill M · 7th January 2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi nKante, they would have used the sling (as above) , even Alexanda the Great had professional sling-ers in his army. Very accurate and deadly in skilled hands. The catapult/ slingshot could fire the same projectiles but not at such velocity but was accurate in less skilled hands.

David used a sling when he took down Goliath.

nKante · 7th January 2007, 06:52 AM

OK. I am familiar with the simple 'sling', but I guess I have always associated the word 'sling-shot' with the 'catapault'. Seems simple now.

katana · 6th January 2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Well there we are, a catapult.

Yes, but I am not convinced that 'gut' straps would be a useful material for a catapult. Yes, gut is strong.....with a small amount of elasticity....more suited to bow strings (both archery and violin) than a catapult.
The pictures and quote are from a dealer in African art.....which also stated the price structure for these catapults was dependent on carving and age. By mentioning the 'traditional gut straps' seems to me to mean that some of their stock could be centuries old........with an increase in price.

I am not so certain that gut was used, if it was they would be fairly useless as a weapon and you would be better off throwing stones at the 'birds'. I think that ALL the catapults are relatively modern...late 19c onward.....purely and simply due to the fact that rubber would provide the necessary 'propellent'. If anyone has any ideas or if I am wrong please let me know.

Gut, leather thonging, hemp etc have all been used to make 'slings' for millenia but this is a totally different animal to the catapult/slingshot. And perhaps this has caused the 'confusion' with the dealer

Pangeran Datu · 6th January 2007, 10:46 PM

G'day All,

I've become a bit confused by this thread.
I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion.

In my experience, hand-held catapaults in the Malay Archipelago (until the late '50s , anyway) were basically of two types:
- Y-prong: fashioned from a naturally-occuring branch of a tree, or one fashioned from a block of wood. The 'elastics' of the sling were fixed to the verticals.
- A block of wood carved into a handle with extra length above the grip of the same dimensions as the grip. On this extra length was 'gouged'/carved a small prong to fix the 'elastics' of the sling.

Generally, the more skillful one was, the smaller the Y-prong, the second type having the smallest prong of all. The 'elastic' was usually an inner tyre tube, cut to suit. I have never seen an adult use one of these implements, since there were countless alternatives for them.

There were basically two methods of launching the projectile:
- aiming at the target in a straight-line motion. ( This method has caused many accidents for the unwary, the projectile hitting the thumb or ricocheting off the 'Y' to hit other parts of the body)
- aiming at the target in a 'parabolic' motion.

BTW, in the UK in the '50s, metal-frame catapaults were available (the 'Y' looking more like a horseshoe with a handle), usually from a sports stores.

I would be most grateful for any elucidation/enlightenment.

Cheers.

katana · 7th January 2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

G'day All,

I've become a bit confused by this thread.
I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion.

As far as I know, it seems that the 'catapult' is called a 'sling shot' in the America's. When searching on the web I found 'sling shot' would direct you to mainly American sites with information about 'catapults'. When putting 'catapult' in the search you tend to be directed to info about 'siege weapons', the larger 'rock hurling' variety......
And , I too, thought the basic 'sling' was called a 'sling shot' .....

Below is a pic. of my catapult (sling shot for our American friends

), with stabilizer weights, sight and arm rest...

Bill M · 7th January 2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

As far as I know, it seems that the 'catapult' is called a 'sling shot' in the America's. When searching on the web I found 'sling shot' would direct you to mainly American sites with information about 'catapults'. When putting 'catapult' in the search you tend to be directed to info about 'siege weapons', the larger 'rock hurling' variety......
And , I too, thought the basic 'sling' was called a 'sling shot' .....

Below is a pic. of my catapult (sling shot for our American friends

), with stabilizer weights, sight and arm rest...

What, no night vision zoom scope?

Looks like it has everything else!

I am still curious about mine. The Seller called it a "catapult." I do not see how it would work unless it had some sort of rubber. It could be old, because rubber inner tubes were invented sometime around 1910. But my piece has little to no wear on the arms, indicating it was not used.

The carving is good, better than tourist. I wonder if it could be something else? Maybe some kind of altar figure? For one thing it has a very good base and stands up well. None of the other slingshots / catapults I have seen will stand up.

The "Y" shape is common in many religions from the Naga in India to the Dayak, to PNG. Though most of these "Y's" are naturaly occuring tree shapes, some have been carved (like mne) to protray that shape.

Though my piece is purported (who ever really knows?) to have come from an old collection, the collector died without cataloging this piece, so the guy who was liquidating the estate made up his own description.

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2007, 08:31 PM

Yes good point about the "Y" shape house posts and other artifacts. The heads are not looking at the target or the user if it is a sling shot. The neck parts do look like something went there.

katana · 7th January 2007, 10:15 PM

Hi Bill, many of the carved Baule catapults I have seen seem to no wear marks around the forked sections, suggesting that they were never equiped with 'bands' .....further suggesting that these seem to be made for the tourists as decorative items.

Your SEA example , IMHO is not a functional catapult......the 'handle' looks too bulky to comfortably hold and (as you have mentioned) has a 'base plate' which seems to indicate that it should be stood. The 'heads' on each the end of the 'fork' do not seem to be a good design to tie/fix any form of 'banding'. I wondered whether it could be a weaving tool, as Tim has also mentioned, but can only find examples of 'heddle' (which has already been discounted as it has no holes which would be where a spool would be fixed.)

I am beginning to think that you are right, that this carving, with all its symbolism and iconography is something more spiritual.
Would it be unreasonable to suggest that something might have been held in the 'V'. If you had two ....... a spear, blowpipe or sword would look great 'nestled' in the stands......perhaps the carved heads looking away were to keep evil spirits away from your weapon.......

Perhaps if the iconography could be 'translated' ....it's use or function may become more clear. Either way it's a very nice piece.

6th January 2007, 08:08 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Found this .... In West African, several cultures, especially the Baule and the Lobi use slingshots. Primarily they are used by young boys to frighten away birds from the crops, such as when the family's millet is ripening. They are also used to hunt small animals such as lizards, frogs, birds and bats. They are also used to occasionally scare off predators as well as for play, (it is common for the boys to hold competitions to see you can hit the farthest milk can. Traditionally gut straps and leather were used, however today used bicycle inner tubes are often employed for the slingshot portion. As the climate in West Africa is quite dry, most times these have rotted away and only the carved wooden handle remains. Attached Images

6th January 2007, 09:14 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Well there we are, a catapult.

6th January 2007, 10:01 PM	#3
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	So that is what a modern sling shot looks like. I have read that sling shots were used in the army of medieval Mali. What were the traditional strappings? Could it have been fired using a whip motion? Picture a mini lacross stick. Then when elastic bands were discovered the same tool could be converted into a stationary launcher. Just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

7th January 2007, 06:52 AM	#6
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	OK. I am familiar with the simple 'sling', but I guess I have always associated the word 'sling-shot' with the 'catapault'. Seems simple now.

6th January 2007, 10:46 PM	#8
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day All, I've become a bit confused by this thread. I have always believed that SLINGSHOTS and CATAPAULTS were two different types of implements, the former requiring only a sling and the latter requiring some form of device for instant propulsion. In my experience, hand-held catapaults in the Malay Archipelago (until the late '50s , anyway) were basically of two types: - Y-prong: fashioned from a naturally-occuring branch of a tree, or one fashioned from a block of wood. The 'elastics' of the sling were fixed to the verticals. - A block of wood carved into a handle with extra length above the grip of the same dimensions as the grip. On this extra length was 'gouged'/carved a small prong to fix the 'elastics' of the sling. Generally, the more skillful one was, the smaller the Y-prong, the second type having the smallest prong of all. The 'elastic' was usually an inner tyre tube, cut to suit. I have never seen an adult use one of these implements, since there were countless alternatives for them. There were basically two methods of launching the projectile: - aiming at the target in a straight-line motion. ( This method has caused many accidents for the unwary, the projectile hitting the thumb or ricocheting off the 'Y' to hit other parts of the body) - aiming at the target in a 'parabolic' motion. BTW, in the UK in the '50s, metal-frame catapaults were available (the 'Y' looking more like a horseshoe with a handle), usually from a sports stores. I would be most grateful for any elucidation/enlightenment. Cheers.

7th January 2007, 08:31 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Yes good point about the "Y" shape house posts and other artifacts. The heads are not looking at the target or the user if it is a sling shot. The neck parts do look like something went there.

7th January 2007, 10:15 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Bill, many of the carved Baule catapults I have seen seem to no wear marks around the forked sections, suggesting that they were never equiped with 'bands' .....further suggesting that these seem to be made for the tourists as decorative items. Your SEA example , IMHO is not a functional catapult......the 'handle' looks too bulky to comfortably hold and (as you have mentioned) has a 'base plate' which seems to indicate that it should be stood. The 'heads' on each the end of the 'fork' do not seem to be a good design to tie/fix any form of 'banding'. I wondered whether it could be a weaving tool, as Tim has also mentioned, but can only find examples of 'heddle' (which has already been discounted as it has no holes which would be where a spool would be fixed.) I am beginning to think that you are right, that this carving, with all its symbolism and iconography is something more spiritual. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that something might have been held in the 'V'. If you had two ....... a spear, blowpipe or sword would look great 'nestled' in the stands......perhaps the carved heads looking away were to keep evil spirits away from your weapon....... Perhaps if the iconography could be 'translated' ....it's use or function may become more clear. Either way it's a very nice piece.