HISTORY OF STEEL IN EASTERN ASIA EXHIBITION NOW ONLINE

VANDOO · 2nd January 2007, 04:50 PM

IN MANY AREAS KNIVES AND MACHETE ARE STILL CARRIED AS TOOLS BY THE LOCALS BUT ARE NOT WEAPONS. EDGED WEAPONS ARE STILL CARRIED TODAY ESPECIALLY BY INSURGENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND TERRORISTS. THEY ARE STILL NECESSARY TO CHOP THRU THE JUNGLE, GET FIRE WOOD AND OTHER CHORES AND MAY EVEN BE USED TO EXECUTE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED OR KIDNAPPED. BUT NO ONE GOES INTO BATTLE WITH SWORDS, SHIELDS OR SPEARS ANYMORE THE RIFLE ESPECIALLY AK47 IS NOW THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR AMBUSH OR ATTACKS.

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD I WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ELDER AT 60 YEARS OLD BUT I WOULD BE A VERY POOR SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE USE OF THE TOMAHAWK AND BOWIE KNIFE. I WAS NOT TRAINED BY MY FAMILY OR TRIBE IN THE USE OF EDGED WEAPONS AS THE CHILDREN WERE IN THE OLD DAYS SO THAT KNOWLEGE HAS BEEN LOST. I HAVE CARRIED POCKET KNIVES, HATCHETS, MACHETE AND HUNTING KNIFES FOR MUCH OF MY LIFE BUT USED THEM AS TOOLS. SO ANY OPINIONS I WOULD HAVE ON ON HOW TO USE THEM IN WARFARE COULD ONLY BE BASED ON WHAT I HAD READ SEEN IN MOVIES OR STORIES I HAD HEARD NOT ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. OFTEN THE STORYS THAT SURVIVE FROM THE OLD TIMES ARE EXZAGERATED TO MAKE THE HEROS SEEM GREATER THAN THEY WERE. FROM MY COUNTRY DANIAL BOONE, DAVY CROCKETT AND JIM BOWIE COME TO MIND THERE IS MORE FICTION THAN FACT IN MOST OF THE STORYS TOLD ABOUT THEM BY THE MEDIA AND THAT IS WHAT MOST OF US KNOW ABOUT THEM. SO UNLESS THE TRIBE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS OVER 200 YEARS AGO THE ELDERS WILL HAVE LOST THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEGE AND ONLY HAVE THE STORYS LEFT. SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

WHILE THE OLD WRITEINGS OF EXPLORERS AND ADVENTURERS HAVE MANY MISTAKES THEY ALSO HAVE SOME VAILD INFORMATION. SO WE JUST REHASH THE OLD WRITEINGS, ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDYS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL INFORMATION , AND UNTIL NEW WRITEINGS SHOW UP OR THE INVENTION OF THE TIME MACHINE THAT IS ALL WE HAVE.

INTERVIEWS WITH ELDERS CAN STILL BE VALUABLE FOR INFORMATION ON THE SOCIETY AT PRESENT AND WHAT THE HISTORY AND BELIEFS ARE TODAY. BUILDING UP A COMPARATIVE COLLECTION OF WEAPONS FROM A AREA CAN BE PRODUCTIVE AND THE LARGER THE COLLECTION THE BETTER. YOU USE THE FEW EXAMPLES WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE AS THE BASELINE AND COMPARE OTHER EXAMPLES TO THEM SOMETIMES IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET APPROXIMATE DATES FOR THEM AND SEE THE CHANGES IN THE TYPE OR LINK DIFFERENT GROUPS BY SIMULARITYS.

David · 2nd January 2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

I might be mistaken, but i believe that some Dayak tribes continued the practice of headhunting well into the 1950s.
I might also be mistaken about this, but i wouldn't be surprised if the gentleman with the barong on his belt in Ron's photo was very well schooled in how to use it as a weapon.
Your point is well taken that the information collected by explorers and adventurers of old are not necessarily invalid. Like all information it should be examined and questioned, but certainly not automatically dismissed.

Tim Simmons · 2nd January 2007, 06:49 PM

It is well known that Iban took heads when acting for the British in the short war with Indonesia in the early 1960s. Not knowing the exact circumstances of how and when heads were cut off, such facts cannot really be used as concrete evidence of cultural knowledge of sword fighting inter tribal warfare in this modern age. Perhaps in isolated areas it might have been different?

VANDOO · 2nd January 2007, 07:04 PM

INDEED SOME CULTURES AND AREAS OF THE WORLD ARE CLOSER TO THE OLD TRADITIONS AND TIMES AND MAY STILL HAVE LIVING MEMBERS FROM THOSE TIMES. SOME TRIBES HAVE KEPT THEIR WAYS OF LIFE AND STILL TRAIN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE OLD WAYS OF LIFE AND WARFARE THE MASAI AMONG OTHERS STILL LIVE MUCH AS THEY DID IN THE PAST BUT WARFARE AND CATTLE RAIDS DO NOT PLAY AS BIG A ROLE IN THEIR LIVES AS IN THE PAST. MANY AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES STILL TRAIN THEIR YOUNG IN THE OLD WAYS MOSTLY CEREMONIES AND TRADITIONS BUT NOT IN WARFARE AS THEY ARE NOT MAKEING WAR ON THIER FELLOW MAN THESE DAYS. IT WOULD STILL BE NECESSARY TO TRAIN THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE WARRIORS IF THE TRIBE LIVED IN A CONSTANT STATE OF WAR WITH THEIR NEGHBORS. THERE ARE STILL PLACES WHERE THIS OCCURS AND THEY ARE TRAINED WITH FIREARMS, BOMBS, ECT. AND DO STILL CARRY EDGED WEAPONS FOR USE WHEN NEEDED.

AS MUCH AS I LIKE TO STUDY THE HISTORY OF THOSE DAYS I DO NOT WANT THE HUMAN RACE TO RETURN TO THOSE DAYS OF PREYING ON YOUR FELLOW MAN FOR HEADS, FOOD OR SLAVES. BUT EVEN MODERN MAN SEEMS TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR RETURNING TO THOSE KINDS OF PRACTICES OFTEN BASED ON WRONGS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE DISTANT PAST. SO THEY HATE AND FEEL JUSTIFIED IN RETURNING TO THOSE DAYS AND DOING THE SAME TERRIBLE THINGS FOR REVENGE NOW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PAST EVENTS. THEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKED MUST LEARN TO FIGHT AND HATE AGAIN AND THE CYCLE STARTS OVER AGAIN AND NO ONE MAY LIVE IN SAFETY OR PEACE. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK MANKIND WILL OUTGROW THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN TIME BUT SO FAR I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HAPPENING IN THE PAST OR TODAY.

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OLD TRADITIONS ...STUDY THE HISTORY

To the point, we're supposed to remember and study history, so why get the written history wrong and have another generation repeat the same mistakes...we could've been spared the incorrect brief history lesson, had the article focused more on the exhibit's theme the "history of steel". The articles from other authors were able to take aspects of the history of weaponry within each nation and stay within context.
Yet another point implied that anything from a nationalistic view is "bs". So where would that leave most HOS articles? It seemed most were written from a nationalistic perspective. Does the study and research digress to only the outsider/foreigners' observation being correct without native words to describe things? backwards to pigstickers and bushwacking wall hangers...lolz

For some carrying on tradition isn't just collecting ethnographic weaponry, its an unbroken link to their warrior ancestors, for example "huun, jumanji kami ha mabagani..." , no English terms for the translation, its like a salutation, words of wisdom a brother recieves as he goes off to battle with a sword, spoken words passed on from generation to generation. "the agung plays its final note"...a more obvious metaphor, the warrior leaves on a journey knowing he's willing to sacrifice himself for his people. Fitting or 'misfit'ting depending on the point of view of the observer.

Two extremes in a modern age where information is more readily available, one strives for knowledge, even has answers laid before them about an object but never quite understands it, lost and suffering in the quest, the other lives and learns within the realm of the culture's wisdom from which the object originates at peace. Were some things never meant to be written? Both have the ability to find the truth but the one stuck in duality will be left empty, angered and at odds with the world.

Social commentary, whether one chooses to accept it or not. In the case of HOS, I gave some facts to incorrect information to educate not degrade. Sure it could be left the way it is and suffer the embarassment for shoddy work. I tried to help and can do no more, point people in the right direction, at least.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2007, 05:22 PM

I THINK WE ALL AGREE HERE AND ARE ON THE SAME PAGE EVEN THOUGH IT IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO EXPRESS ONES OPINIONS IN A WAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND. I AGREE WITH MABAGANI THAT IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT THE PROJECT WAS RUSHED AND THAT THE MISTAKES SHOULD BE CORRECTED IN SOME WAY IF POSSIBLE. I THINK THE IDEA OF AN EXHIBIT WAS A GOOD ONE AND IT WAS UNFORTUNATE THAT IT HAD TO BE RUSHED AND THAT MORE KNOWLEGABLE PEOPLE WERE NOT ABLE TO CHECK ON THE INFORMATION AND MAKE CORRECTIONS BEFORE THE EXHIBIT WAS DONE.

I THINK THE IDEA FOR THE EXHIBIT TO COINCIDE WITH THE ASIAN GAMES PROBABLY DIDN'T COME ALONG UNTILL THERE WAS LITTLE TIME TO PLAN AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS. SO IT WAS EITHER DO IT OR FORGET THE IDEA AND SAY IF ONLY WE HAD MORE TIME, MONEY,HELP AND A BIGGER EXHIBIT AREA WE COULD DO IT AND THROW UP YOUR HANDS AND DO NOTHING.
THE CHOICE WAS MADE TO HURRY ON AND DO THE BEST THEY COULD WITH WHAT THEY HAD. I AM SURE THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HAD ALL THE TIME, HELP,MONEY AND SPACE THEY NEEDED AND TO HAVE HAD EVERYTHING PERFECT AND ACCURATE . BUT WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS AND ARE WORKING FAST CORNERS HAVE TO BE CUT AS UNEXPECTED PROBLEMS ALWAYS CROP UP SO MORE MISTAKES WILL BE MADE AND THERE WILL NOT BE TIME TO FIND AND CORRECT THEM BEFORE THE DEADLINE. I HOPE THEY WILL HAVE TIME NOW TO CORRECT SOME OF THE MISTAKES AND PERHAPS IF THE CATALOGS ARE ALREADY PRINTED A LOOSE PAGE COULD BE INSERTED WITH THE CORECTIONS LISTED WITH THE PAGE NUMBERS OF THE MISTAKES. THAT WOULD BE THE EASYIEST AND LEAST EXPENSIVE WAY TO DO IT.

I AM GLAD THE EXHIBIT WENT THRU ANYWAY AS OVER THE YEARS I HAVE HEARD MANY GOOD IDEAS AND SEEN THEM BEAT DOWN BY REASON (NOT ENOUGH TIME,MONEY,SPACE, INTREST IN THE SUBJECT, NO MONEY TO BE MADE FOR US). AS A RESULT VERY FEW GOOD IDEAS ARE EVER COMPLETED UNLESS SOME GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL IGNORES THE NAY SAYERS AND PUSHES ON WITH THE IDEA UNTIL HE IS EITHER STOPPED OR THE PROJECT IS COMPLETED.

HEAD HUNTING HAS OCCURED IN MALAYSIA VERY RECENTLY DUE TO THE IMIGRATION PRESSURE PUT ON THE DAYAKS. YOU COULD ALSO SAY THEY ARE CURRENTLY HEAD HUNTING IN THE MIDDLE EAST ESPECIALLY IRAQ. I COULD TAKE A HEAD MYSELF IF I WANTED TO BUT I NO LONGER HAVE THE BELIEFS, TRADITIONS OR REASONS IN MY CULTURE THAT WERE THERE IN THE DISTANT PAST. IT MAY ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY ANCIENT ANCESTORS SOCIETY BUT AS I KNOW LITTLE ABOUT ANCIENT PICTS AND DON'T FOLLOW THEIR BELIEFS FOR ME TO TAKE A HEAD WOULD ONLY BE AN ACT OF MURDER, OR SELF DEFENSE. SO I THINK IF THE TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN AND ARE NOT A PART OF THE TRIBAL LIFE OF A PERSON TODAY HE CAN NOT BE A GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE PAST.
ANYONE CAN TAKE A HEAD AND MAY HAVE HAD ANCESTORS WHO WERE HEADHUNTERS BUT UNLESS THEIR ANCIENT BELIEFS AND TRADITIONS ARE KNOWN, LIVED AND INTACT IT IS NOT THE SAME AS IN THE OLD DAYS. OLD WARRIORS FROM THOSE TRADITIONAL SOCIETYS OR A TRIBAL STORYTELLER (WHO WERE THE HISTORIANS OF THE TRIBE) MIGHT STILL HAVE SOME GOOD INFORMATION ON OLD TRADITIONS OR BELIEFS. BUT THE GUY WHO JUST TOOK A HEAD BECAUSE THE NEGHBORS ATE HIS DOG WILL HAVE VERY LITTLE TRIBAL INFORMATION.

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2007, 06:19 PM

Okay, I agree that we disagree about some things. lolz
Btw the warrior mythology has its place and can be applied in modern life, they are lessons not always to be taken literally, at least in a civilized society(?). We can't afford to leave people behind any longer, uneducated in the age of information if our common goal is peace. Difficult enough as it is to reconcile eachs own history, so why screw with another nations' past? We really need a new archetype for the one human race. Read works by Joseph Cambell. Save some trees, send laptops with free internet access not bombs...

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2007, 09:34 PM

I have stayed out of this discussion until now, mostly because I have very little knowledge of Philippine history, culture, society or weaponry.

I have no base of knowledge, so what can I contribute?

However, as this discussion has developed it has moved from the core issues of disagreement in respect of some perceptions of history, and other suggested inaccuracies, to the broader questions of how people at this point in time should view, or are able to view , events and opinions that existed in a time past.

It has often been said that "winners write the history books".
If this is so, and I personally believe that it is, we can expect to see varying opinions in respect of any historical event. To identify the real, accurate truth of any matter could in some cases be impossible at any later date. In the writing of any new work the important thing should be that the matters presented as fact be adequately referenced. Commentary on an exhibition of edged weaponry is hardly in the same category as a text book produced for use by Phd candidates. I would suggest that if the percieved inaccuracies in the historical commentary that accompanied this exhibition are able to referenced to any accepted authority, then that should be adequate for the purpose for which this exhibition commentary was produced.

Barry has very accurately identified the changing nature of the cultural stream.
That which held true for one's grandfather does not necessarily hold true for oneself.

The passing of time changes cultural perceptions, and societal values, and even deeply rooted values can and do undergo change over a period of time.

Just as values change, so do beliefs.

Verbal histories may hold the essence of truth, but it is certain that that essence of truth will be buried and distorted by the need for the human respository of that verbal tradition to reinforce the values and self image of the society of which he is a part.This is not to say that a verbal tradition has no value, it does have a high value. But that value reflects the way in which a culture and society sees itself, rather than the truth of the events recounted in the verbal history or tradition.

A parrallel can be drawn with the babads of the Javanese courts, which do contain the essence of truth, but are presented in a way and a form calculated to reflect truths to cast a positive light on the ruler.

Perhaps we could look at the events which have taken place in our world over the last few years.
How many of us believe that the "facts" that have been presented to us in respect of a number of major events are accurate representations of what really took place?

I feel that in assessing the excellence or otherwise of the historical commentary that accompanied this exhibition we should adopt a flexible attitude rather than an intransigent one. I suggest that it may be wise to view this commentary in the context of its presentation, and to realise that any perception of historical events can vary, dependent upon a multitude of factors.

As a person with no stake in the debate surrounding this exhibition, who has only a passing interest in what was presented in the exhibition, and after following the contributions to this debate in this and other forums, I feel compelled to comment that I have been left with an overall feeling of negativity in respect of the viciously critical comments that have been levelled at both the exhibition and those people who devoted their time and their property to trying to ensure its success.

In my opinion this hypercritical attitude does not reflect honour upon those who engage in it, nor does it it reflect honour upon the society and culture represented in the exhibition. If we can assume that the overall objective of the exhibition, and those who supported it , was to promote an element of Philippine culture, then we can only deduce that the viciousness of the attacks upon the exhibition and the work of those who supported it has been calculated to detract from those efforts to present a cultural element in a favourable light.

We do not sell an idea by violent and vicious disagreement with those who promote that idea in a way that varies slightly from what we ouselves believe, rather, we take what those others present and we build on it.

2nd January 2007, 04:50 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN MANY AREAS KNIVES AND MACHETE ARE STILL CARRIED AS TOOLS BY THE LOCALS BUT ARE NOT WEAPONS. EDGED WEAPONS ARE STILL CARRIED TODAY ESPECIALLY BY INSURGENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND TERRORISTS. THEY ARE STILL NECESSARY TO CHOP THRU THE JUNGLE, GET FIRE WOOD AND OTHER CHORES AND MAY EVEN BE USED TO EXECUTE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED OR KIDNAPPED. BUT NO ONE GOES INTO BATTLE WITH SWORDS, SHIELDS OR SPEARS ANYMORE THE RIFLE ESPECIALLY AK47 IS NOW THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR AMBUSH OR ATTACKS. IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD I WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ELDER AT 60 YEARS OLD BUT I WOULD BE A VERY POOR SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE USE OF THE TOMAHAWK AND BOWIE KNIFE. I WAS NOT TRAINED BY MY FAMILY OR TRIBE IN THE USE OF EDGED WEAPONS AS THE CHILDREN WERE IN THE OLD DAYS SO THAT KNOWLEGE HAS BEEN LOST. I HAVE CARRIED POCKET KNIVES, HATCHETS, MACHETE AND HUNTING KNIFES FOR MUCH OF MY LIFE BUT USED THEM AS TOOLS. SO ANY OPINIONS I WOULD HAVE ON ON HOW TO USE THEM IN WARFARE COULD ONLY BE BASED ON WHAT I HAD READ SEEN IN MOVIES OR STORIES I HAD HEARD NOT ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. OFTEN THE STORYS THAT SURVIVE FROM THE OLD TIMES ARE EXZAGERATED TO MAKE THE HEROS SEEM GREATER THAN THEY WERE. FROM MY COUNTRY DANIAL BOONE, DAVY CROCKETT AND JIM BOWIE COME TO MIND THERE IS MORE FICTION THAN FACT IN MOST OF THE STORYS TOLD ABOUT THEM BY THE MEDIA AND THAT IS WHAT MOST OF US KNOW ABOUT THEM. SO UNLESS THE TRIBE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS OVER 200 YEARS AGO THE ELDERS WILL HAVE LOST THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEGE AND ONLY HAVE THE STORYS LEFT. SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT. WHILE THE OLD WRITEINGS OF EXPLORERS AND ADVENTURERS HAVE MANY MISTAKES THEY ALSO HAVE SOME VAILD INFORMATION. SO WE JUST REHASH THE OLD WRITEINGS, ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDYS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL INFORMATION , AND UNTIL NEW WRITEINGS SHOW UP OR THE INVENTION OF THE TIME MACHINE THAT IS ALL WE HAVE. INTERVIEWS WITH ELDERS CAN STILL BE VALUABLE FOR INFORMATION ON THE SOCIETY AT PRESENT AND WHAT THE HISTORY AND BELIEFS ARE TODAY. BUILDING UP A COMPARATIVE COLLECTION OF WEAPONS FROM A AREA CAN BE PRODUCTIVE AND THE LARGER THE COLLECTION THE BETTER. YOU USE THE FEW EXAMPLES WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE AS THE BASELINE AND COMPARE OTHER EXAMPLES TO THEM SOMETIMES IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET APPROXIMATE DATES FOR THEM AND SEE THE CHANGES IN THE TYPE OR LINK DIFFERENT GROUPS BY SIMULARITYS. Last edited by VANDOO; 2nd January 2007 at 05:10 PM.

2nd January 2007, 06:49 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	It is well known that Iban took heads when acting for the British in the short war with Indonesia in the early 1960s. Not knowing the exact circumstances of how and when heads were cut off, such facts cannot really be used as concrete evidence of cultural knowledge of sword fighting inter tribal warfare in this modern age. Perhaps in isolated areas it might have been different? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd January 2007 at 07:21 PM.

3rd January 2007, 05:22 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I THINK WE ALL AGREE HERE AND ARE ON THE SAME PAGE EVEN THOUGH IT IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO EXPRESS ONES OPINIONS IN A WAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND. I AGREE WITH MABAGANI THAT IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT THE PROJECT WAS RUSHED AND THAT THE MISTAKES SHOULD BE CORRECTED IN SOME WAY IF POSSIBLE. I THINK THE IDEA OF AN EXHIBIT WAS A GOOD ONE AND IT WAS UNFORTUNATE THAT IT HAD TO BE RUSHED AND THAT MORE KNOWLEGABLE PEOPLE WERE NOT ABLE TO CHECK ON THE INFORMATION AND MAKE CORRECTIONS BEFORE THE EXHIBIT WAS DONE. I THINK THE IDEA FOR THE EXHIBIT TO COINCIDE WITH THE ASIAN GAMES PROBABLY DIDN'T COME ALONG UNTILL THERE WAS LITTLE TIME TO PLAN AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS. SO IT WAS EITHER DO IT OR FORGET THE IDEA AND SAY IF ONLY WE HAD MORE TIME, MONEY,HELP AND A BIGGER EXHIBIT AREA WE COULD DO IT AND THROW UP YOUR HANDS AND DO NOTHING. THE CHOICE WAS MADE TO HURRY ON AND DO THE BEST THEY COULD WITH WHAT THEY HAD. I AM SURE THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HAD ALL THE TIME, HELP,MONEY AND SPACE THEY NEEDED AND TO HAVE HAD EVERYTHING PERFECT AND ACCURATE . BUT WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS AND ARE WORKING FAST CORNERS HAVE TO BE CUT AS UNEXPECTED PROBLEMS ALWAYS CROP UP SO MORE MISTAKES WILL BE MADE AND THERE WILL NOT BE TIME TO FIND AND CORRECT THEM BEFORE THE DEADLINE. I HOPE THEY WILL HAVE TIME NOW TO CORRECT SOME OF THE MISTAKES AND PERHAPS IF THE CATALOGS ARE ALREADY PRINTED A LOOSE PAGE COULD BE INSERTED WITH THE CORECTIONS LISTED WITH THE PAGE NUMBERS OF THE MISTAKES. THAT WOULD BE THE EASYIEST AND LEAST EXPENSIVE WAY TO DO IT. I AM GLAD THE EXHIBIT WENT THRU ANYWAY AS OVER THE YEARS I HAVE HEARD MANY GOOD IDEAS AND SEEN THEM BEAT DOWN BY REASON (NOT ENOUGH TIME,MONEY,SPACE, INTREST IN THE SUBJECT, NO MONEY TO BE MADE FOR US). AS A RESULT VERY FEW GOOD IDEAS ARE EVER COMPLETED UNLESS SOME GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL IGNORES THE NAY SAYERS AND PUSHES ON WITH THE IDEA UNTIL HE IS EITHER STOPPED OR THE PROJECT IS COMPLETED. HEAD HUNTING HAS OCCURED IN MALAYSIA VERY RECENTLY DUE TO THE IMIGRATION PRESSURE PUT ON THE DAYAKS. YOU COULD ALSO SAY THEY ARE CURRENTLY HEAD HUNTING IN THE MIDDLE EAST ESPECIALLY IRAQ. I COULD TAKE A HEAD MYSELF IF I WANTED TO BUT I NO LONGER HAVE THE BELIEFS, TRADITIONS OR REASONS IN MY CULTURE THAT WERE THERE IN THE DISTANT PAST. IT MAY ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY ANCIENT ANCESTORS SOCIETY BUT AS I KNOW LITTLE ABOUT ANCIENT PICTS AND DON'T FOLLOW THEIR BELIEFS FOR ME TO TAKE A HEAD WOULD ONLY BE AN ACT OF MURDER, OR SELF DEFENSE. SO I THINK IF THE TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN AND ARE NOT A PART OF THE TRIBAL LIFE OF A PERSON TODAY HE CAN NOT BE A GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE PAST. ANYONE CAN TAKE A HEAD AND MAY HAVE HAD ANCESTORS WHO WERE HEADHUNTERS BUT UNLESS THEIR ANCIENT BELIEFS AND TRADITIONS ARE KNOWN, LIVED AND INTACT IT IS NOT THE SAME AS IN THE OLD DAYS. OLD WARRIORS FROM THOSE TRADITIONAL SOCIETYS OR A TRIBAL STORYTELLER (WHO WERE THE HISTORIANS OF THE TRIBE) MIGHT STILL HAVE SOME GOOD INFORMATION ON OLD TRADITIONS OR BELIEFS. BUT THE GUY WHO JUST TOOK A HEAD BECAUSE THE NEGHBORS ATE HIS DOG WILL HAVE VERY LITTLE TRIBAL INFORMATION. Last edited by VANDOO; 3rd January 2007 at 06:24 PM.

2nd January 2007, 07:04 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	INDEED SOME CULTURES AND AREAS OF THE WORLD ARE CLOSER TO THE OLD TRADITIONS AND TIMES AND MAY STILL HAVE LIVING MEMBERS FROM THOSE TIMES. SOME TRIBES HAVE KEPT THEIR WAYS OF LIFE AND STILL TRAIN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE OLD WAYS OF LIFE AND WARFARE THE MASAI AMONG OTHERS STILL LIVE MUCH AS THEY DID IN THE PAST BUT WARFARE AND CATTLE RAIDS DO NOT PLAY AS BIG A ROLE IN THEIR LIVES AS IN THE PAST. MANY AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES STILL TRAIN THEIR YOUNG IN THE OLD WAYS MOSTLY CEREMONIES AND TRADITIONS BUT NOT IN WARFARE AS THEY ARE NOT MAKEING WAR ON THIER FELLOW MAN THESE DAYS. IT WOULD STILL BE NECESSARY TO TRAIN THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE WARRIORS IF THE TRIBE LIVED IN A CONSTANT STATE OF WAR WITH THEIR NEGHBORS. THERE ARE STILL PLACES WHERE THIS OCCURS AND THEY ARE TRAINED WITH FIREARMS, BOMBS, ECT. AND DO STILL CARRY EDGED WEAPONS FOR USE WHEN NEEDED. AS MUCH AS I LIKE TO STUDY THE HISTORY OF THOSE DAYS I DO NOT WANT THE HUMAN RACE TO RETURN TO THOSE DAYS OF PREYING ON YOUR FELLOW MAN FOR HEADS, FOOD OR SLAVES. BUT EVEN MODERN MAN SEEMS TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR RETURNING TO THOSE KINDS OF PRACTICES OFTEN BASED ON WRONGS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE DISTANT PAST. SO THEY HATE AND FEEL JUSTIFIED IN RETURNING TO THOSE DAYS AND DOING THE SAME TERRIBLE THINGS FOR REVENGE NOW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PAST EVENTS. THEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKED MUST LEARN TO FIGHT AND HATE AGAIN AND THE CYCLE STARTS OVER AGAIN AND NO ONE MAY LIVE IN SAFETY OR PEACE. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK MANKIND WILL OUTGROW THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN TIME BUT SO FAR I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HAPPENING IN THE PAST OR TODAY.

3rd January 2007, 06:19 PM	#7
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Okay, I agree that we disagree about some things. lolz Btw the warrior mythology has its place and can be applied in modern life, they are lessons not always to be taken literally, at least in a civilized society(?). We can't afford to leave people behind any longer, uneducated in the age of information if our common goal is peace. Difficult enough as it is to reconcile eachs own history, so why screw with another nations' past? We really need a new archetype for the one human race. Read works by Joseph Cambell. Save some trees, send laptops with free internet access not bombs...

3rd January 2007, 09:34 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I have stayed out of this discussion until now, mostly because I have very little knowledge of Philippine history, culture, society or weaponry. I have no base of knowledge, so what can I contribute? However, as this discussion has developed it has moved from the core issues of disagreement in respect of some perceptions of history, and other suggested inaccuracies, to the broader questions of how people at this point in time should view, or are able to view , events and opinions that existed in a time past. It has often been said that "winners write the history books". If this is so, and I personally believe that it is, we can expect to see varying opinions in respect of any historical event. To identify the real, accurate truth of any matter could in some cases be impossible at any later date. In the writing of any new work the important thing should be that the matters presented as fact be adequately referenced. Commentary on an exhibition of edged weaponry is hardly in the same category as a text book produced for use by Phd candidates. I would suggest that if the percieved inaccuracies in the historical commentary that accompanied this exhibition are able to referenced to any accepted authority, then that should be adequate for the purpose for which this exhibition commentary was produced. Barry has very accurately identified the changing nature of the cultural stream. That which held true for one's grandfather does not necessarily hold true for oneself. The passing of time changes cultural perceptions, and societal values, and even deeply rooted values can and do undergo change over a period of time. Just as values change, so do beliefs. Verbal histories may hold the essence of truth, but it is certain that that essence of truth will be buried and distorted by the need for the human respository of that verbal tradition to reinforce the values and self image of the society of which he is a part.This is not to say that a verbal tradition has no value, it does have a high value. But that value reflects the way in which a culture and society sees itself, rather than the truth of the events recounted in the verbal history or tradition. A parrallel can be drawn with the babads of the Javanese courts, which do contain the essence of truth, but are presented in a way and a form calculated to reflect truths to cast a positive light on the ruler. Perhaps we could look at the events which have taken place in our world over the last few years. How many of us believe that the "facts" that have been presented to us in respect of a number of major events are accurate representations of what really took place? I feel that in assessing the excellence or otherwise of the historical commentary that accompanied this exhibition we should adopt a flexible attitude rather than an intransigent one. I suggest that it may be wise to view this commentary in the context of its presentation, and to realise that any perception of historical events can vary, dependent upon a multitude of factors. As a person with no stake in the debate surrounding this exhibition, who has only a passing interest in what was presented in the exhibition, and after following the contributions to this debate in this and other forums, I feel compelled to comment that I have been left with an overall feeling of negativity in respect of the viciously critical comments that have been levelled at both the exhibition and those people who devoted their time and their property to trying to ensure its success. In my opinion this hypercritical attitude does not reflect honour upon those who engage in it, nor does it it reflect honour upon the society and culture represented in the exhibition. If we can assume that the overall objective of the exhibition, and those who supported it , was to promote an element of Philippine culture, then we can only deduce that the viciousness of the attacks upon the exhibition and the work of those who supported it has been calculated to detract from those efforts to present a cultural element in a favourable light. We do not sell an idea by violent and vicious disagreement with those who promote that idea in a way that varies slightly from what we ouselves believe, rather, we take what those others present and we build on it.