HISTORY OF STEEL IN EASTERN ASIA EXHIBITION NOW ONLINE

David · 1st January 2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Unfortunately every single book I have read that was coming up as an ultimate study of weapons, performed by a "culture carrier", about to destroy western myths and misunderstandings of local language and culture, based on author's personal research, in my very personal opinion, was a mere nationalistic BS. Archives, archives, archives, unless the villagers really remember the use of weapons (and if they do they are invaluable), there is very little that can be gained from them.

Rivkin, I think due to the prominence of the rifles in the photo Ron posted you may have overlooked the edged weapons in the background that were clearly still in use in this area in the 1960s. I understand that your area of study is not the Philippines, but since it is the topic we are on at the moment you might want to take note that kris and barong certainly have been uses as active weapons in these regions in the past 50 yrs. Therefore you may discover some actual "carriers of culture" in this region that might give you very valid information.
It should be obvious that history is written by the victors and that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. How to rectify contadictions that arise in historical dating due to this will continue to be a question. I would be more concerned about the accurate descrption of the weapons and their history of use than the specifics a when exactly hostilities may have began or ended, but i do understand why these dates are important to some. It seems to me that any fair assessment of history must include the stories on both sides of the battle lines.
I must agree with Spunjer on his take on the study of weapons. We can only learn so much on forums or from books and travelling to the regions our weapons come from should be the goal of any serious collector. Even if one cannot find any true "carriers of culture" to speak with, much can be learned simply by walking amongst the people of the place these weapons come from and immersing ourselves in the whole of their culture. You cannot learn about these things in a vaccum, seperated from the culture of origin.
I feel a loss for anyone who felt the need to walk away from this forum due to their experience with HOS. Regardless of the validity of any claim they might have against HOS, this forum is not HOS. Certainly some here were contributors, but this forum is so much more than that. This forum is made up of the people that participate here, regardless of their connections elsewhere. Everyone here has a free voice, in the context of the rules of civility that exist here. This is place to share knowledge and grow. To leave this forum over this event is as much a loss to self as it is to this forum. Nothing is solved through withdrawal.

Rivkin · 1st January 2007, 09:42 PM

Please show me where I stated that the swords were not in use in Philipinnes 50 years ago. As I said, I make general statements.

My opinion is very simple: 20 or so years ago it became fashionable for young "easterners", lead by Dr. Said and others, lacking any knowledge of history, religion, archeology, to declare that the western knowledge is invalid and moreover - no matter how much BS the "easterner" puts into his book, he can not be critisized by a "westerner" since the "easterner" is a "culture carrier" (whatever this means) and he once did speak with a village elder (which they call "research").

Rick · 1st January 2007, 10:00 PM

Let's please keep the tone civil; okay?

David · 1st January 2007, 10:07 PM

Rivikin, you did not state this. Sorry if you thought i implied so. But after Ron posted the photo to support why speaking with "carriers of culture" is legitimate in the study of Philippines edged weapons you continued to dismiss the practice. I understand that you are speaking generally, but this thread is speaking specifically at the moment about the Philippines, so i see your post as ignoring the evidence that was put before you.
Your opinion was clear and perhaps valid to the area of weapons you are discussing, i am just not convinced that it necessarily applies in our discussion of Filipino weapory.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2007, 04:50 PM

IN MANY AREAS KNIVES AND MACHETE ARE STILL CARRIED AS TOOLS BY THE LOCALS BUT ARE NOT WEAPONS. EDGED WEAPONS ARE STILL CARRIED TODAY ESPECIALLY BY INSURGENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND TERRORISTS. THEY ARE STILL NECESSARY TO CHOP THRU THE JUNGLE, GET FIRE WOOD AND OTHER CHORES AND MAY EVEN BE USED TO EXECUTE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED OR KIDNAPPED. BUT NO ONE GOES INTO BATTLE WITH SWORDS, SHIELDS OR SPEARS ANYMORE THE RIFLE ESPECIALLY AK47 IS NOW THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR AMBUSH OR ATTACKS.

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD I WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ELDER AT 60 YEARS OLD BUT I WOULD BE A VERY POOR SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE USE OF THE TOMAHAWK AND BOWIE KNIFE. I WAS NOT TRAINED BY MY FAMILY OR TRIBE IN THE USE OF EDGED WEAPONS AS THE CHILDREN WERE IN THE OLD DAYS SO THAT KNOWLEGE HAS BEEN LOST. I HAVE CARRIED POCKET KNIVES, HATCHETS, MACHETE AND HUNTING KNIFES FOR MUCH OF MY LIFE BUT USED THEM AS TOOLS. SO ANY OPINIONS I WOULD HAVE ON ON HOW TO USE THEM IN WARFARE COULD ONLY BE BASED ON WHAT I HAD READ SEEN IN MOVIES OR STORIES I HAD HEARD NOT ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. OFTEN THE STORYS THAT SURVIVE FROM THE OLD TIMES ARE EXZAGERATED TO MAKE THE HEROS SEEM GREATER THAN THEY WERE. FROM MY COUNTRY DANIAL BOONE, DAVY CROCKETT AND JIM BOWIE COME TO MIND THERE IS MORE FICTION THAN FACT IN MOST OF THE STORYS TOLD ABOUT THEM BY THE MEDIA AND THAT IS WHAT MOST OF US KNOW ABOUT THEM. SO UNLESS THE TRIBE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS OVER 200 YEARS AGO THE ELDERS WILL HAVE LOST THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEGE AND ONLY HAVE THE STORYS LEFT. SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

WHILE THE OLD WRITEINGS OF EXPLORERS AND ADVENTURERS HAVE MANY MISTAKES THEY ALSO HAVE SOME VAILD INFORMATION. SO WE JUST REHASH THE OLD WRITEINGS, ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDYS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL INFORMATION , AND UNTIL NEW WRITEINGS SHOW UP OR THE INVENTION OF THE TIME MACHINE THAT IS ALL WE HAVE.

INTERVIEWS WITH ELDERS CAN STILL BE VALUABLE FOR INFORMATION ON THE SOCIETY AT PRESENT AND WHAT THE HISTORY AND BELIEFS ARE TODAY. BUILDING UP A COMPARATIVE COLLECTION OF WEAPONS FROM A AREA CAN BE PRODUCTIVE AND THE LARGER THE COLLECTION THE BETTER. YOU USE THE FEW EXAMPLES WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE AS THE BASELINE AND COMPARE OTHER EXAMPLES TO THEM SOMETIMES IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET APPROXIMATE DATES FOR THEM AND SEE THE CHANGES IN THE TYPE OR LINK DIFFERENT GROUPS BY SIMULARITYS.

David · 2nd January 2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT.

I might be mistaken, but i believe that some Dayak tribes continued the practice of headhunting well into the 1950s.
I might also be mistaken about this, but i wouldn't be surprised if the gentleman with the barong on his belt in Ron's photo was very well schooled in how to use it as a weapon.
Your point is well taken that the information collected by explorers and adventurers of old are not necessarily invalid. Like all information it should be examined and questioned, but certainly not automatically dismissed.

Tim Simmons · 2nd January 2007, 06:49 PM

It is well known that Iban took heads when acting for the British in the short war with Indonesia in the early 1960s. Not knowing the exact circumstances of how and when heads were cut off, such facts cannot really be used as concrete evidence of cultural knowledge of sword fighting inter tribal warfare in this modern age. Perhaps in isolated areas it might have been different?

VANDOO · 2nd January 2007, 07:04 PM

INDEED SOME CULTURES AND AREAS OF THE WORLD ARE CLOSER TO THE OLD TRADITIONS AND TIMES AND MAY STILL HAVE LIVING MEMBERS FROM THOSE TIMES. SOME TRIBES HAVE KEPT THEIR WAYS OF LIFE AND STILL TRAIN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE OLD WAYS OF LIFE AND WARFARE THE MASAI AMONG OTHERS STILL LIVE MUCH AS THEY DID IN THE PAST BUT WARFARE AND CATTLE RAIDS DO NOT PLAY AS BIG A ROLE IN THEIR LIVES AS IN THE PAST. MANY AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES STILL TRAIN THEIR YOUNG IN THE OLD WAYS MOSTLY CEREMONIES AND TRADITIONS BUT NOT IN WARFARE AS THEY ARE NOT MAKEING WAR ON THIER FELLOW MAN THESE DAYS. IT WOULD STILL BE NECESSARY TO TRAIN THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE WARRIORS IF THE TRIBE LIVED IN A CONSTANT STATE OF WAR WITH THEIR NEGHBORS. THERE ARE STILL PLACES WHERE THIS OCCURS AND THEY ARE TRAINED WITH FIREARMS, BOMBS, ECT. AND DO STILL CARRY EDGED WEAPONS FOR USE WHEN NEEDED.

AS MUCH AS I LIKE TO STUDY THE HISTORY OF THOSE DAYS I DO NOT WANT THE HUMAN RACE TO RETURN TO THOSE DAYS OF PREYING ON YOUR FELLOW MAN FOR HEADS, FOOD OR SLAVES. BUT EVEN MODERN MAN SEEMS TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR RETURNING TO THOSE KINDS OF PRACTICES OFTEN BASED ON WRONGS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE DISTANT PAST. SO THEY HATE AND FEEL JUSTIFIED IN RETURNING TO THOSE DAYS AND DOING THE SAME TERRIBLE THINGS FOR REVENGE NOW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PAST EVENTS. THEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKED MUST LEARN TO FIGHT AND HATE AGAIN AND THE CYCLE STARTS OVER AGAIN AND NO ONE MAY LIVE IN SAFETY OR PEACE. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK MANKIND WILL OUTGROW THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN TIME BUT SO FAR I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HAPPENING IN THE PAST OR TODAY.

MABAGANI · 3rd January 2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OLD TRADITIONS ...STUDY THE HISTORY

To the point, we're supposed to remember and study history, so why get the written history wrong and have another generation repeat the same mistakes...we could've been spared the incorrect brief history lesson, had the article focused more on the exhibit's theme the "history of steel". The articles from other authors were able to take aspects of the history of weaponry within each nation and stay within context.
Yet another point implied that anything from a nationalistic view is "bs". So where would that leave most HOS articles? It seemed most were written from a nationalistic perspective. Does the study and research digress to only the outsider/foreigners' observation being correct without native words to describe things? backwards to pigstickers and bushwacking wall hangers...lolz

For some carrying on tradition isn't just collecting ethnographic weaponry, its an unbroken link to their warrior ancestors, for example "huun, jumanji kami ha mabagani..." , no English terms for the translation, its like a salutation, words of wisdom a brother recieves as he goes off to battle with a sword, spoken words passed on from generation to generation. "the agung plays its final note"...a more obvious metaphor, the warrior leaves on a journey knowing he's willing to sacrifice himself for his people. Fitting or 'misfit'ting depending on the point of view of the observer.

Two extremes in a modern age where information is more readily available, one strives for knowledge, even has answers laid before them about an object but never quite understands it, lost and suffering in the quest, the other lives and learns within the realm of the culture's wisdom from which the object originates at peace. Were some things never meant to be written? Both have the ability to find the truth but the one stuck in duality will be left empty, angered and at odds with the world.

Social commentary, whether one chooses to accept it or not. In the case of HOS, I gave some facts to incorrect information to educate not degrade. Sure it could be left the way it is and suffer the embarassment for shoddy work. I tried to help and can do no more, point people in the right direction, at least.

1st January 2007, 10:00 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Warning Let's please keep the tone civil; okay?

2nd January 2007, 04:50 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN MANY AREAS KNIVES AND MACHETE ARE STILL CARRIED AS TOOLS BY THE LOCALS BUT ARE NOT WEAPONS. EDGED WEAPONS ARE STILL CARRIED TODAY ESPECIALLY BY INSURGENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND TERRORISTS. THEY ARE STILL NECESSARY TO CHOP THRU THE JUNGLE, GET FIRE WOOD AND OTHER CHORES AND MAY EVEN BE USED TO EXECUTE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED OR KIDNAPPED. BUT NO ONE GOES INTO BATTLE WITH SWORDS, SHIELDS OR SPEARS ANYMORE THE RIFLE ESPECIALLY AK47 IS NOW THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR AMBUSH OR ATTACKS. IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD I WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ELDER AT 60 YEARS OLD BUT I WOULD BE A VERY POOR SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE USE OF THE TOMAHAWK AND BOWIE KNIFE. I WAS NOT TRAINED BY MY FAMILY OR TRIBE IN THE USE OF EDGED WEAPONS AS THE CHILDREN WERE IN THE OLD DAYS SO THAT KNOWLEGE HAS BEEN LOST. I HAVE CARRIED POCKET KNIVES, HATCHETS, MACHETE AND HUNTING KNIFES FOR MUCH OF MY LIFE BUT USED THEM AS TOOLS. SO ANY OPINIONS I WOULD HAVE ON ON HOW TO USE THEM IN WARFARE COULD ONLY BE BASED ON WHAT I HAD READ SEEN IN MOVIES OR STORIES I HAD HEARD NOT ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. OFTEN THE STORYS THAT SURVIVE FROM THE OLD TIMES ARE EXZAGERATED TO MAKE THE HEROS SEEM GREATER THAN THEY WERE. FROM MY COUNTRY DANIAL BOONE, DAVY CROCKETT AND JIM BOWIE COME TO MIND THERE IS MORE FICTION THAN FACT IN MOST OF THE STORYS TOLD ABOUT THEM BY THE MEDIA AND THAT IS WHAT MOST OF US KNOW ABOUT THEM. SO UNLESS THE TRIBE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS OVER 200 YEARS AGO THE ELDERS WILL HAVE LOST THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEGE AND ONLY HAVE THE STORYS LEFT. SO ASKING A OLD TRIBAL MEMBER ABOUT HEAD HUNTING WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PRACTICED FOR 200 YEARS WILL ONLY GET YOU STORIES AND PERSONEL OPINIONS NOT FACTS. THE FACTS YOU CAN GET IS HOW THE WEAPON/TOOLS ARE USED TODAY AND PERHAPS THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE ANCESTORS FROM THE OLD DAYS. THE STORYS ABOUT THE ANCESTORS MAY BE ACCURATE OR NOT. WHILE THE OLD WRITEINGS OF EXPLORERS AND ADVENTURERS HAVE MANY MISTAKES THEY ALSO HAVE SOME VAILD INFORMATION. SO WE JUST REHASH THE OLD WRITEINGS, ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDYS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL INFORMATION , AND UNTIL NEW WRITEINGS SHOW UP OR THE INVENTION OF THE TIME MACHINE THAT IS ALL WE HAVE. INTERVIEWS WITH ELDERS CAN STILL BE VALUABLE FOR INFORMATION ON THE SOCIETY AT PRESENT AND WHAT THE HISTORY AND BELIEFS ARE TODAY. BUILDING UP A COMPARATIVE COLLECTION OF WEAPONS FROM A AREA CAN BE PRODUCTIVE AND THE LARGER THE COLLECTION THE BETTER. YOU USE THE FEW EXAMPLES WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE AS THE BASELINE AND COMPARE OTHER EXAMPLES TO THEM SOMETIMES IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET APPROXIMATE DATES FOR THEM AND SEE THE CHANGES IN THE TYPE OR LINK DIFFERENT GROUPS BY SIMULARITYS. Last edited by VANDOO; 2nd January 2007 at 05:10 PM.

2nd January 2007, 06:49 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	It is well known that Iban took heads when acting for the British in the short war with Indonesia in the early 1960s. Not knowing the exact circumstances of how and when heads were cut off, such facts cannot really be used as concrete evidence of cultural knowledge of sword fighting inter tribal warfare in this modern age. Perhaps in isolated areas it might have been different? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd January 2007 at 07:21 PM.

1st January 2007, 09:42 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Please show me where I stated that the swords were not in use in Philipinnes 50 years ago. As I said, I make general statements. My opinion is very simple: 20 or so years ago it became fashionable for young "easterners", lead by Dr. Said and others, lacking any knowledge of history, religion, archeology, to declare that the western knowledge is invalid and moreover - no matter how much BS the "easterner" puts into his book, he can not be critisized by a "westerner" since the "easterner" is a "culture carrier" (whatever this means) and he once did speak with a village elder (which they call "research").

1st January 2007, 10:07 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Rivikin, you did not state this. Sorry if you thought i implied so. But after Ron posted the photo to support why speaking with "carriers of culture" is legitimate in the study of Philippines edged weapons you continued to dismiss the practice. I understand that you are speaking generally, but this thread is speaking specifically at the moment about the Philippines, so i see your post as ignoring the evidence that was put before you. Your opinion was clear and perhaps valid to the area of weapons you are discussing, i am just not convinced that it necessarily applies in our discussion of Filipino weapory.

2nd January 2007, 07:04 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	INDEED SOME CULTURES AND AREAS OF THE WORLD ARE CLOSER TO THE OLD TRADITIONS AND TIMES AND MAY STILL HAVE LIVING MEMBERS FROM THOSE TIMES. SOME TRIBES HAVE KEPT THEIR WAYS OF LIFE AND STILL TRAIN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE OLD WAYS OF LIFE AND WARFARE THE MASAI AMONG OTHERS STILL LIVE MUCH AS THEY DID IN THE PAST BUT WARFARE AND CATTLE RAIDS DO NOT PLAY AS BIG A ROLE IN THEIR LIVES AS IN THE PAST. MANY AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES STILL TRAIN THEIR YOUNG IN THE OLD WAYS MOSTLY CEREMONIES AND TRADITIONS BUT NOT IN WARFARE AS THEY ARE NOT MAKEING WAR ON THIER FELLOW MAN THESE DAYS. IT WOULD STILL BE NECESSARY TO TRAIN THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE WARRIORS IF THE TRIBE LIVED IN A CONSTANT STATE OF WAR WITH THEIR NEGHBORS. THERE ARE STILL PLACES WHERE THIS OCCURS AND THEY ARE TRAINED WITH FIREARMS, BOMBS, ECT. AND DO STILL CARRY EDGED WEAPONS FOR USE WHEN NEEDED. AS MUCH AS I LIKE TO STUDY THE HISTORY OF THOSE DAYS I DO NOT WANT THE HUMAN RACE TO RETURN TO THOSE DAYS OF PREYING ON YOUR FELLOW MAN FOR HEADS, FOOD OR SLAVES. BUT EVEN MODERN MAN SEEMS TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR RETURNING TO THOSE KINDS OF PRACTICES OFTEN BASED ON WRONGS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE DISTANT PAST. SO THEY HATE AND FEEL JUSTIFIED IN RETURNING TO THOSE DAYS AND DOING THE SAME TERRIBLE THINGS FOR REVENGE NOW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PAST EVENTS. THEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKED MUST LEARN TO FIGHT AND HATE AGAIN AND THE CYCLE STARTS OVER AGAIN AND NO ONE MAY LIVE IN SAFETY OR PEACE. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK MANKIND WILL OUTGROW THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN TIME BUT SO FAR I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HAPPENING IN THE PAST OR TODAY.