Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 17th February 2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Cut iron meteors display a flake-board-like pattern of angled crystals called a Windmenstatten pattern (spelling probably way off on that one), but only if cut/ground into; any hot working destroys this pattern, which could only be remade under the conditions of outer space or whatever.

Hi Tom,

Somewhat like the Keris, a cut and polished surface of an iron meteorite (except Ataxites) will only display the Widmanstatten structure after being acid etched.

There is a range of crystal structures from fine to coarse. The theory we learned (over 30 years ago) about the cause of this range of crystal structures, there was a planet or planetoid that existed between Earth and Mars. Through some event, the planet was destroyed... scattering its debris along what we call the asteroid belt. The core of the planet was made of "iron" like our own Earth's. As this nickel-iron core cooled, it crystallized. The slower the component cooled, the coarser the crystal structure became. I hope you will fine this helpful.

BSMStar

nechesh · 18th February 2005, 12:19 AM

Henk, indeed i do have Tammens Vol. 1 and i have read the passages over many times.I think the analysis of which he speaks is merely a way of determining the elemental components such as nickel, not the source from which they come. I don't believe it was necessary for Groneman to test blades to make the conclusion that they were meteorite. Groneman was a contemporary to the process. He knew a blade was meteroite probably because he knew the empu who made it, or the blade was well provenenced. He mayhave tested nickel content, but he was told they were from meteorites.
The meteorite analysis that Tammens sites is for strikes which took place on the other side of the world to Jawa, so while it is interesting it doesn't prove in any way that there were strikes previous to Prambanan that were used for pamor. He does metion four other meteorite sites on Jawa, Tjabe, Bandong, Ngarri and Djati Pengelon. Tjabe was ordinary stone Chondrite which fell in 1869, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...y=T1210&index= , Bandong was a stone LL6 that fell in 1871, http://www.nyrockman.com/museum/bandong-80.htm , Djati Pengilon is also ordinary stone Chondrite and fell in 1884, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...ey=D910&index= . I could find no records of the other one mentioned. Perhaps they have an alternative spelling. They all don't seem to have any iron/nickel content to speak of AND they struck in the latter half of the 19thC so
Free iron from heavem may indeed be free (unless it hits you

) but it certainly ain't common. MOST blades were not made with this stuff. MANY old blades didn't even use nickel to create pamor contrast.

Henk · 18th February 2005, 09:31 AM

You made a point Nechesh, and a stone doesn't make a pamor blade unless you heat it and collect the possible nickle and use it, but that is unlogical.
And I'm aware of the fact that different metalls were used to make a pamor blade without nickle.

I did read the dutch version of Tammens and I don't find mentioned that dr. Groneman was told that the metall came from a meteor. But it is very good possible like you put it. But when they told him the metall was from a meteor, our scientist wasn't acting very scietific

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 12:47 PM

I have thought of this idea of meteorite kris as a confusion of windmenstatten and pamor patterns, but could it be that there is an Indonesian folk belief that nickel or other metals originate from meteors, and even when mined from the Earth, that their origins "in the mists of time" are celestial? In Western Africa there is a folk belief that neolithic celts (knives/axes/palstave tips) come from the sky and are artifacts of divine/alien origin.

okhba3 · 18th February 2005, 02:16 PM

According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium.
The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

BSMStar · 19th February 2005, 01:56 AM

okhba3

OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead?????

I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti.

Tom,

I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite.

Here is some more interesting stuff:

http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 05:27 AM

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

BSMStar · 19th February 2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

As long as we keep in mind, there isn't any black color in the Widmanstatten pattern. The affect is cause by the different speeds the acid "eats" it's way through the nickel-iron structure... where in pamor, it is a blackening affect by depositing sulfur on the iron, changing the color of the iron surface.

BSMStar

18th February 2005, 12:19 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Henk, indeed i do have Tammens Vol. 1 and i have read the passages over many times.I think the analysis of which he speaks is merely a way of determining the elemental components such as nickel, not the source from which they come. I don't believe it was necessary for Groneman to test blades to make the conclusion that they were meteorite. Groneman was a contemporary to the process. He knew a blade was meteroite probably because he knew the empu who made it, or the blade was well provenenced. He mayhave tested nickel content, but he was told they were from meteorites. The meteorite analysis that Tammens sites is for strikes which took place on the other side of the world to Jawa, so while it is interesting it doesn't prove in any way that there were strikes previous to Prambanan that were used for pamor. He does metion four other meteorite sites on Jawa, Tjabe, Bandong, Ngarri and Djati Pengelon. Tjabe was ordinary stone Chondrite which fell in 1869, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...y=T1210&index= , Bandong was a stone LL6 that fell in 1871, http://www.nyrockman.com/museum/bandong-80.htm , Djati Pengilon is also ordinary stone Chondrite and fell in 1884, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...ey=D910&index= . I could find no records of the other one mentioned. Perhaps they have an alternative spelling. They all don't seem to have any iron/nickel content to speak of AND they struck in the latter half of the 19thC so Free iron from heavem may indeed be free (unless it hits you ) but it certainly ain't common. MOST blades were not made with this stuff. MANY old blades didn't even use nickel to create pamor contrast. Last edited by nechesh; 18th February 2005 at 01:04 AM.

18th February 2005, 02:16 PM	#5
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Titanium is the key component? According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium. The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

19th February 2005, 01:56 AM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	okhba3 OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead????? I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti. Tom, I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite. Here is some more interesting stuff: http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm Attached Images

18th February 2005, 09:31 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	You made a point Nechesh, and a stone doesn't make a pamor blade unless you heat it and collect the possible nickle and use it, but that is unlogical. And I'm aware of the fact that different metalls were used to make a pamor blade without nickle. I did read the dutch version of Tammens and I don't find mentioned that dr. Groneman was told that the metall came from a meteor. But it is very good possible like you put it. But when they told him the metall was from a meteor, our scientist wasn't acting very scietific

18th February 2005, 12:47 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I have thought of this idea of meteorite kris as a confusion of windmenstatten and pamor patterns, but could it be that there is an Indonesian folk belief that nickel or other metals originate from meteors, and even when mined from the Earth, that their origins "in the mists of time" are celestial? In Western Africa there is a folk belief that neolithic celts (knives/axes/palstave tips) come from the sky and are artifacts of divine/alien origin.

19th February 2005, 05:27 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....