Katar (????) for comment ...

B.I · 10th December 2006, 05:22 PM

I think the holes are more than likely to attach padding. Firangis used the same concept, in a thickened padded insert, shaped to fit into the grip and attached by just one or two holes. As did patas.
I dont feel the contruction is weak at all, but as Andrew said, it was possibly more for a ceremonial use.
This piece is unusual in design, but of a specific type. The is a similar example in Stone, now in the Met. This has a different shaped guard (which makes it look more like the normal hooded katars) but the contruction is completely different to them, and more like this example (with the blade welded to the guard and grip(s) riveted on. I am away from my library, so cant show the katar I mean in Stone, but it is pictured with the other katars. I am sure this is of the same type, as I have seen a few of them and the similarities are remarkable. The image in Stone only shows the outside, so the similarity is lost.
The design on this guard is South Indian, and the evidence of silver plating adds to this as an origin. I feel the dating to be later than the hooded katars, and made in a retro fashion.
The wavy blade is uncommon, but also does appear know and then. This feature also adds to its potential use as a ceremonial piece (see attached image from the Royal Armouries).

Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz?

katana · 10th December 2006, 05:51 PM

Here are several pictures....one states the evolution of the Katar to Pata....perhaps this is an example of this 'transition'. The other picture shows that the 'wavy' blade is not exclusive to the SEA.

HUSAR · 10th December 2006, 06:07 PM

Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz?[/QUOTE]

Hello
I`m not sure that the blade is wootz I will try to bring out pattern maybe next weeknd and post more pictures. But from the steel "shape" I think it is wootz.

HUSAR · 10th December 2006, 06:13 PM

Dear Members
Thank you for reply I see that you really like that dagger

Thank you for all comments and pictures!
The conection of the blade and hilt is not weak at all, and in my opinion is rather not ceremonial, but i`m NOT expert in katars either

look at the back site of the hilt, it is really well made
I totally agree with you that holes in hilt are for some kind of pad like in kula-zereh helmets or in firangi swords.
Best
HUSAR

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 07:52 PM

This is a truly unusual example of 'katar' and I agree with B.I.'s assessment of southern India. From the look of the patination etc. it shows good age and likely early 19th c. seems probable. I have not ever seen one of these mounted in this manner, with the transverse grips actually fixed handles welded to the plate type handguard. I agree with Andrew that this piece seems 'ceremonial' as the more two dimensional construction with the plate type guard, rather than contoured hand enclosure suggests that. I dont believe the construction seems weak at all, but the ceremonial application seems supported as well by the nagan or serpentine blade form, which in most cases I have seen have been determined to be in this category.

I think the decorative motif on the guard 'plate' may be the best indicator of the provenance of this distinctly unusual piece. The scalloped edges of the upper and lower udges of the guard plate recall the 'cusped arch' seen in the Peacock Gate of the city palace at Jaipur ("Arts and Crafts of India", Cooper & Gillow, 1996, p.147). While this design here may be Hindu, it is also noted that the four cusp design seen at base of the blade on some Vijayanagara period katars (latter 16th c.) reflect similarity to Muslim architecture ("Hindu Arms and Ritual" p.147). The diamond sectioned diaper pattern enclosing a floral motif seems to me key to Mughal form , and possibly Jens can add more on this.

The holes which may be for the addition of padding also suggest this may be a ceremonial item. It would seem to me that padding would be superfluous to the gauntleted hand of an armored warrior, although we do know that many pieces such as the khandas mentioned and of course patas did have pads.
Elgood has suggested (op.cit.p.147) that on many katar examples of the hooded form padding is absent because of no apparant means of attaching it. Possibly, padding only existed on weapons used by the more pedestrian rank and file? where gauntlets and such armor were not available to them.

This seems a very important and key find and I look forward to learning more from it!! Hopefully there will be more observations from B.I. and Jens on the motif and especially what the floral motif depicts.

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 10th December 2006, 08:06 PM

I agree with Andrew, the piece would be too weak. I have seen and held katars and they in their hey-day could withstand the forces of impact generated. This type of soldering (not looking like welding which would be even stronger that soldering, though still weak) would not hold up long under combat force impact. I'm more for ceremonial. The blade itself maybe fine, but I would suggest that it was not original to the piece and that this piece is a composite.

Tim Simmons · 10th December 2006, 08:15 PM

Forge welding, folded steel. Like Japanese stuff the holy grail

Very strong very practical even if it looks light.
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm

10th December 2006, 05:22 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	I think the holes are more than likely to attach padding. Firangis used the same concept, in a thickened padded insert, shaped to fit into the grip and attached by just one or two holes. As did patas. I dont feel the contruction is weak at all, but as Andrew said, it was possibly more for a ceremonial use. This piece is unusual in design, but of a specific type. The is a similar example in Stone, now in the Met. This has a different shaped guard (which makes it look more like the normal hooded katars) but the contruction is completely different to them, and more like this example (with the blade welded to the guard and grip(s) riveted on. I am away from my library, so cant show the katar I mean in Stone, but it is pictured with the other katars. I am sure this is of the same type, as I have seen a few of them and the similarities are remarkable. The image in Stone only shows the outside, so the similarity is lost. The design on this guard is South Indian, and the evidence of silver plating adds to this as an origin. I feel the dating to be later than the hooded katars, and made in a retro fashion. The wavy blade is uncommon, but also does appear know and then. This feature also adds to its potential use as a ceremonial piece (see attached image from the Royal Armouries). Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz? Attached Images

10th December 2006, 05:51 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here are several pictures....one states the evolution of the Katar to Pata....perhaps this is an example of this 'transition'. The other picture shows that the 'wavy' blade is not exclusive to the SEA. Attached Images

10th December 2006, 08:15 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Forge welding, folded steel. Like Japanese stuff the holy grail Very strong very practical even if it looks light. http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th December 2006 at 08:46 PM.

10th December 2006, 06:07 PM	#3
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz?[/QUOTE] Hello I`m not sure that the blade is wootz I will try to bring out pattern maybe next weeknd and post more pictures. But from the steel "shape" I think it is wootz.

10th December 2006, 06:13 PM	#4
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Dear Members Thank you for reply I see that you really like that dagger Thank you for all comments and pictures! The conection of the blade and hilt is not weak at all, and in my opinion is rather not ceremonial, but i`m NOT expert in katars either look at the back site of the hilt, it is really well made I totally agree with you that holes in hilt are for some kind of pad like in kula-zereh helmets or in firangi swords. Best HUSAR

10th December 2006, 07:52 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a truly unusual example of 'katar' and I agree with B.I.'s assessment of southern India. From the look of the patination etc. it shows good age and likely early 19th c. seems probable. I have not ever seen one of these mounted in this manner, with the transverse grips actually fixed handles welded to the plate type handguard. I agree with Andrew that this piece seems 'ceremonial' as the more two dimensional construction with the plate type guard, rather than contoured hand enclosure suggests that. I dont believe the construction seems weak at all, but the ceremonial application seems supported as well by the nagan or serpentine blade form, which in most cases I have seen have been determined to be in this category. I think the decorative motif on the guard 'plate' may be the best indicator of the provenance of this distinctly unusual piece. The scalloped edges of the upper and lower udges of the guard plate recall the 'cusped arch' seen in the Peacock Gate of the city palace at Jaipur ("Arts and Crafts of India", Cooper & Gillow, 1996, p.147). While this design here may be Hindu, it is also noted that the four cusp design seen at base of the blade on some Vijayanagara period katars (latter 16th c.) reflect similarity to Muslim architecture ("Hindu Arms and Ritual" p.147). The diamond sectioned diaper pattern enclosing a floral motif seems to me key to Mughal form , and possibly Jens can add more on this. The holes which may be for the addition of padding also suggest this may be a ceremonial item. It would seem to me that padding would be superfluous to the gauntleted hand of an armored warrior, although we do know that many pieces such as the khandas mentioned and of course patas did have pads. Elgood has suggested (op.cit.p.147) that on many katar examples of the hooded form padding is absent because of no apparant means of attaching it. Possibly, padding only existed on weapons used by the more pedestrian rank and file? where gauntlets and such armor were not available to them. This seems a very important and key find and I look forward to learning more from it!! Hopefully there will be more observations from B.I. and Jens on the motif and especially what the floral motif depicts. All the best, Jim

10th December 2006, 08:06 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I agree with Andrew, the piece would be too weak. I have seen and held katars and they in their hey-day could withstand the forces of impact generated. This type of soldering (not looking like welding which would be even stronger that soldering, though still weak) would not hold up long under combat force impact. I'm more for ceremonial. The blade itself maybe fine, but I would suggest that it was not original to the piece and that this piece is a composite.