What are "Ethnographic Weapons?"

VANDOO · 4th December 2006, 04:56 PM

I AGREE THAT THE BELIEFS OF THE MORE PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN ALL FACETS OF THEIR LIVES. THEY DICTATED ALMOST EVERY THING IN THEIR SOCIETIES, THE TABOOS AND SUPERSTITIONS AND RITUALS WERE BOTH THEIR LAW AND SCIENCE. SCIENCE IS A BIG WORD BUT ALL IT REALLY MEANS IS THE ATTEMPTS OF US POOR HUMANS TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORK. WE HAVE MANY BRANCHES OF SCIENCE FOR STUDIENG DIFFERENT THINGS IN OUR WORLD AND IN THE UNIVERSE BUT STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE WE GET IT ALL FIGURED OUT.
I LOOK AT SUPERSTITION, MAGIC AND RELATED BELIEFS AS EARLY WAYS MANKIND TRIED TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORKED AND MADE RULES THAT WOULD SERVE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE FROM THE FORCES OF NATURE AND THEIR ENEMYS.
WARRIORS WOULD TAKE A ANIMAL THEY FEARED OR RESPECTED AS A SPIRIT ,TOTUM OR GARDIAN FOR THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES. IF THEY COULD KILL OR FIND A PART OF SUCH AN ANIMAL THEY WOULD KEEP IT HOPEING TO GET SOME OF ITS POWERS. SUCH SUPERSTITION AND BELIEFS WERE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DANGEROUS ANIMALS THAT WERE OFTEN MEAT EATERS. BUT OTHER DANGEROUS GAME ANIMALS SUCH AS ELEPHANT,RHINO AND BUFFALOW WERE ALSO RESPECTED AND HONORED. TAILSMEN WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE FROM BOTH TYPES OF ANIMALS. WARRIORS AND HUNTERS USUALLY WANTED THIS KIND OF MAGIC AND WOULD HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF TAILSMAN PERHAPS A CLAW, FANG OR A SMALL CARVEING OR PICTURE IN THEIR GEAR. MANY SOCIETIES ALSO PLACED MUCH IMPORTANCE ON KILLING SUCH AN ANIMAL AND TO BECOME A WARRIOR AND TAKE A WIFE IT WAS REQUIRED. OTHER SOCIETIES REQUIRED THE KILLING OF A MEMBER OF A ENEMY TRIBE TO GAIN WARRIOR STATUS AND PRIVELEGES. SO HEAD HUNTING, CANNABALISM AND OTHER PRACTICES EVOLVED FROM THESE CUSTOMS. THIS SORT OF MAGIC WAS TO GAIN THE ANIMALS OR WARRIORS POWER AND THE AND PROTECTION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL OR THE ENEMY.

MYSTERIOUS ANIMALS WERE ALSO BELIEVED TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS SO MANY SUPERSTITIONS WERE BASED ON SNAKES, CROCODILES,TURTLES, BATS AND OTHER ANIMALS. NOCTURNAL AND MARINE ANIMALS WERE OFTEN MYSTERIOUS TO TRIBAL PEOPLE BECAUSE IT WAS DIFFICULT TO SEE THEM OR HOW THEY LIVED. A SHAMAN OR CHIEF MIGHT HAVE TAILSMAN FOR THIS KIND OF ANIMAL . THESE TWO SORTS OF BELIEF AND MAGIC WOULD MOSTLY BE ASSOCIATED WITH WEAPONS, WARFARE AND HUNTING.
THERE WERE ALSO MANY BELIEFS HAVING TO DO WITH ELEMENTS(EARTH,AIR,FIRE,WATER), FERTILITY,HARVEST,RAIN ECT. THERE WAS ALSO MAGIC TO PROTECT THE VILLAGE AND ITS PEOPLE FROM EVIL SPIRITS WHICH IN MANY INSTANCES CAME IN THE FORM OF SICKNESS. NOT UNDERSTANDING GERMS OR DISEASE THESE THINGS WERE BLAMED ON EVIL SPIRITS. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS ON HOW IT MUST HAVE BEEN AND STILL IS TO A CERTIAN EXTENT IN PARTS OF TODAYS WORLD.

Tim Simmons · 4th December 2006, 05:24 PM

I feel this is a more important aspect of collecting the more "ethnic" horrible word but you will know what I mean, of ethnographic weapons collecting. I have said this before "not what it is but why it is what it is" is more interesting than how big, hard and sharp it is, though that does have a basic appeal. To wander too far from weapons would be a mistake here in my opinion. To not really know about the items in there original context is not learning and the worst aspect of collecting. I think some allowance is granted to us to show a small amount of culturally relevant additional material. When it happens I find it often more knowledgeable than many specialist forms. All adding to make this a mine of information, a friendly place to spend enjoyable time instead of letting the television turn you mad.

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2006, 06:11 PM

Great topic Bill!
This is exactly what most of us here have been focused on doing with the weapons we study here, and Jens has posted an excellent example of how totemic or talismanic qualities of for example, snakes, have become symbolic motif. The application of totemic or animist symbolism on weapons has been known since prehistoric times, and we have had so many brilliant discussions on them here that it is hard to really name them all, but I think Vandoo and Jens have expressed well placed observations covering this.

One of the greatest obstacles has of course always been certain hypersensitivity in discussing religious or geopolitical factors that are inherent in various cultures and though they play a key role in symbolism on the weapons, the discussions have almost always digressed into unfortunate tirades. It has always been my opinion, as someone who remains fascinated with all cultures and always desperately trying to learn more about them, that if everyone would only try to understand other cultures and allow each other the right to thier own beliefs, there would be less fighting and tragedy in this world. Idealistic, to be sure, but it is what I believe...and I will emphasize here that I speak for myself only, before any crossfire evolves

I think that as Andrew has noted, most types of arms and armour, and often even various items of ethnographic material culture, are distinctively pertinant to the study of the edged weapons of these cultures. As Jens has often noted, the symbolism found in decorative motif would seem to carry important clues in identifying the provenance of weapons. Important symbolism pertaining to religious beliefs has been shown of utmost importance as has been shown in Robert Elgood's outstanding "Hindu Arms and Ritual", one of the first arms books I am aware of that carries focus on that particular topic.
There has been a large degree of specious debate over the use of the term Islamic Arms in the titles of books on these weapons saying that the term is improperly applied and inadequate as a description. Debates over weapons terminology has also been an endless stumbling block in studying ethnographic edged weapons, with semantics, transliteration and local variation causing most of the misunderstandings. It would seem that there has been a large degree of 'misapplication' in describing weapons in the history of arms study, but using terms that are colloquially understood (collectors terms) seem better left in place for the purpose of discussion.

Even military regulation weapons are considered pertinant in our study of ethnographic weapons, as has been seen with countless native weapons using either captured or trade components from colonizing powers.
We once had a great discussion on Scottish basket hilts, and whether they were considered 'ethnographic'. Absolutely!

A topic dear to my heart!!
The Scottish clans were indeed 'tribal' as clans are essentially a tribal unit.

Even the U.S. has an indiginous 'ethnographic' weapon! In my opinion, the famed Bowie knife would fall distinctly in this category

My thoughts,

All the best,
Jim

4th December 2006, 04:56 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE THAT THE BELIEFS OF THE MORE PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN ALL FACETS OF THEIR LIVES. THEY DICTATED ALMOST EVERY THING IN THEIR SOCIETIES, THE TABOOS AND SUPERSTITIONS AND RITUALS WERE BOTH THEIR LAW AND SCIENCE. SCIENCE IS A BIG WORD BUT ALL IT REALLY MEANS IS THE ATTEMPTS OF US POOR HUMANS TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORK. WE HAVE MANY BRANCHES OF SCIENCE FOR STUDIENG DIFFERENT THINGS IN OUR WORLD AND IN THE UNIVERSE BUT STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE WE GET IT ALL FIGURED OUT. I LOOK AT SUPERSTITION, MAGIC AND RELATED BELIEFS AS EARLY WAYS MANKIND TRIED TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORKED AND MADE RULES THAT WOULD SERVE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE FROM THE FORCES OF NATURE AND THEIR ENEMYS. WARRIORS WOULD TAKE A ANIMAL THEY FEARED OR RESPECTED AS A SPIRIT ,TOTUM OR GARDIAN FOR THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES. IF THEY COULD KILL OR FIND A PART OF SUCH AN ANIMAL THEY WOULD KEEP IT HOPEING TO GET SOME OF ITS POWERS. SUCH SUPERSTITION AND BELIEFS WERE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DANGEROUS ANIMALS THAT WERE OFTEN MEAT EATERS. BUT OTHER DANGEROUS GAME ANIMALS SUCH AS ELEPHANT,RHINO AND BUFFALOW WERE ALSO RESPECTED AND HONORED. TAILSMEN WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE FROM BOTH TYPES OF ANIMALS. WARRIORS AND HUNTERS USUALLY WANTED THIS KIND OF MAGIC AND WOULD HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF TAILSMAN PERHAPS A CLAW, FANG OR A SMALL CARVEING OR PICTURE IN THEIR GEAR. MANY SOCIETIES ALSO PLACED MUCH IMPORTANCE ON KILLING SUCH AN ANIMAL AND TO BECOME A WARRIOR AND TAKE A WIFE IT WAS REQUIRED. OTHER SOCIETIES REQUIRED THE KILLING OF A MEMBER OF A ENEMY TRIBE TO GAIN WARRIOR STATUS AND PRIVELEGES. SO HEAD HUNTING, CANNABALISM AND OTHER PRACTICES EVOLVED FROM THESE CUSTOMS. THIS SORT OF MAGIC WAS TO GAIN THE ANIMALS OR WARRIORS POWER AND THE AND PROTECTION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL OR THE ENEMY. MYSTERIOUS ANIMALS WERE ALSO BELIEVED TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS SO MANY SUPERSTITIONS WERE BASED ON SNAKES, CROCODILES,TURTLES, BATS AND OTHER ANIMALS. NOCTURNAL AND MARINE ANIMALS WERE OFTEN MYSTERIOUS TO TRIBAL PEOPLE BECAUSE IT WAS DIFFICULT TO SEE THEM OR HOW THEY LIVED. A SHAMAN OR CHIEF MIGHT HAVE TAILSMAN FOR THIS KIND OF ANIMAL . THESE TWO SORTS OF BELIEF AND MAGIC WOULD MOSTLY BE ASSOCIATED WITH WEAPONS, WARFARE AND HUNTING. THERE WERE ALSO MANY BELIEFS HAVING TO DO WITH ELEMENTS(EARTH,AIR,FIRE,WATER), FERTILITY,HARVEST,RAIN ECT. THERE WAS ALSO MAGIC TO PROTECT THE VILLAGE AND ITS PEOPLE FROM EVIL SPIRITS WHICH IN MANY INSTANCES CAME IN THE FORM OF SICKNESS. NOT UNDERSTANDING GERMS OR DISEASE THESE THINGS WERE BLAMED ON EVIL SPIRITS. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS ON HOW IT MUST HAVE BEEN AND STILL IS TO A CERTIAN EXTENT IN PARTS OF TODAYS WORLD.

4th December 2006, 05:24 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I feel this is a more important aspect of collecting the more "ethnic" horrible word but you will know what I mean, of ethnographic weapons collecting. I have said this before "not what it is but why it is what it is" is more interesting than how big, hard and sharp it is, though that does have a basic appeal. To wander too far from weapons would be a mistake here in my opinion. To not really know about the items in there original context is not learning and the worst aspect of collecting. I think some allowance is granted to us to show a small amount of culturally relevant additional material. When it happens I find it often more knowledgeable than many specialist forms. All adding to make this a mine of information, a friendly place to spend enjoyable time instead of letting the television turn you mad.

4th December 2006, 06:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Great topic Bill! This is exactly what most of us here have been focused on doing with the weapons we study here, and Jens has posted an excellent example of how totemic or talismanic qualities of for example, snakes, have become symbolic motif. The application of totemic or animist symbolism on weapons has been known since prehistoric times, and we have had so many brilliant discussions on them here that it is hard to really name them all, but I think Vandoo and Jens have expressed well placed observations covering this. One of the greatest obstacles has of course always been certain hypersensitivity in discussing religious or geopolitical factors that are inherent in various cultures and though they play a key role in symbolism on the weapons, the discussions have almost always digressed into unfortunate tirades. It has always been my opinion, as someone who remains fascinated with all cultures and always desperately trying to learn more about them, that if everyone would only try to understand other cultures and allow each other the right to thier own beliefs, there would be less fighting and tragedy in this world. Idealistic, to be sure, but it is what I believe...and I will emphasize here that I speak for myself only, before any crossfire evolves I think that as Andrew has noted, most types of arms and armour, and often even various items of ethnographic material culture, are distinctively pertinant to the study of the edged weapons of these cultures. As Jens has often noted, the symbolism found in decorative motif would seem to carry important clues in identifying the provenance of weapons. Important symbolism pertaining to religious beliefs has been shown of utmost importance as has been shown in Robert Elgood's outstanding "Hindu Arms and Ritual", one of the first arms books I am aware of that carries focus on that particular topic. There has been a large degree of specious debate over the use of the term Islamic Arms in the titles of books on these weapons saying that the term is improperly applied and inadequate as a description. Debates over weapons terminology has also been an endless stumbling block in studying ethnographic edged weapons, with semantics, transliteration and local variation causing most of the misunderstandings. It would seem that there has been a large degree of 'misapplication' in describing weapons in the history of arms study, but using terms that are colloquially understood (collectors terms) seem better left in place for the purpose of discussion. Even military regulation weapons are considered pertinant in our study of ethnographic weapons, as has been seen with countless native weapons using either captured or trade components from colonizing powers. We once had a great discussion on Scottish basket hilts, and whether they were considered 'ethnographic'. Absolutely! A topic dear to my heart!! The Scottish clans were indeed 'tribal' as clans are essentially a tribal unit. Even the U.S. has an indiginous 'ethnographic' weapon! In my opinion, the famed Bowie knife would fall distinctly in this category My thoughts, All the best, Jim