True Combat Value of Wootz

Chris Evans · 29th November 2006, 09:46 AM

Hi Emanuel,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Chris,
So temperature control is more or less the whole secret to good forging, correct?

You certainly identified correctly one of the most important factors. But there are many others such as the chemical composition of the steel, that of the fuel, atmosphere control, `soaking' time and temperature. Metallurgy involves the successful management of quite a number of variables.

Quote:

Now, would an European smith with comparable levels of knowledge and experience to a top Indian/Persian smith be able to create wootz/pulad ingots and forge a watered blade from European iron ore? Or is the precise mix of iron/carbon of Indian ore important?

Forging Damascus Wootz with the tell-tale surface pattern was considered a lost art until very recently. Have a read of that paper that I gave the link to in my post early on, No8 in this thread. It will probably answer your questions. One of the big problems, as I see it, is that we do not even have a clear consensus as to what we are talking about, that is what exact type of steel, forging and heat treatment we are specifically interested in. For my part, I am happy to settle for any pre modern crucible steel, but others apply a much tighter definition. For example, in the above link, one of the swords was declared not to be true Wootz Damascus because it had a lower carbon content.

Cheers
Chris

Gt Obach · 29th November 2006, 01:56 PM

Hi

yes.. i believe the definition of wootz does wander all over the place for reasons....

ask yourself some questions...
- why does the definition wander
- why does the current definition follow the patent on wootz
- was wootz a lost secret prior to the patent ??
- was a proper survey done before making the above claim
- Do accurate recipes exist that are from ancient records and are accessible with university interlibrary loan..? ..... did they exist prior to the patent ? or did they magically appear after the patent?

I know i ask alot of questions... but I can't help my self... .. i have to stir the pot sometimes..

Manolo: the problem with comparing Euro smiths to Indian/Persian smiths is that they basing their smithing practices on much different materials... ... that is why the Euro smiths had a hard time with forging wootz... as the wootz material has to be forged at a much lower heat than what they safely use for their sword material....

now with the same technique... i believe it maybe possible with some of the european ores..... remember the carbide formers are micro alloys... very small amount is needed..
-- but the carbon level is critical to making the high carb wootz...

My homebrew wootz is made alot of the time with cast iron cut with mild iron.... but now a days... there is alot of tramp elements in the scrap iron... so you have to watch it... .. our metal standards are going down hill..
-- i've made all sorts of wootz from scrap... ..some with 52100 and cast iron.... with assorted springsteels and cast... 1018 iron and charcoal.... wrought and charcoal...

i know Jeff uses local ore
and Ric will use that high purity iron

I'd love to get some ore from the old areas... and try my hand at it... ... i thought awhile back that Achim did something like that.... i know he's worked some old ingots

so much wootz, so little time

Greg

Jeff Pringle · 29th November 2006, 03:09 PM

The steel I make typically runs a little higher in silicon and quite a bit lower in phosphorus compared to the analyses in the JOM article, but I recently got an ingot with comparable phosphorus that has great pattern, even though it's 0.73% Carbon...but I also get good patterns with low phosphorus, so I'm not sure what that means

Need...more...data

Chris Evans · 29th November 2006, 11:09 PM

Hi Greg,

I wasn't even aware that Wootz was patented. Who took out the patent and what exactly was patented? The composition or forging? Or both?

Jeff,

That blade's pattern is very beautiful. Given its hypoeutectoid composition, did you quench harden it? Are the patterns due to Ferrite or carbides?

Cheers
Chris

Gt Obach · 30th November 2006, 12:52 AM

Nice work, Jeff.... thats real sweet !

Hi Chris... .. I spent a good bit of time... but i finally dug up the patent on the us patent site... so you can look for your self.. its alway better to see references first hand..

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...us&RS=damascus

I don't believe its been challenged

Chris Evans · 30th November 2006, 01:24 AM

Greg,

Many thanks for that link - That patent explains a lot that I couldn't understand.

Cheers
Chris

RSWORD · 30th November 2006, 02:00 AM

As a collector of wootz blades this has been an enlightening and quite enjoyable discussion. While I am not an experienced metalurgist to contribute to the discussion, I have made casual observations in the various wootz blades I have handled over the years or are in my collection. The first is that from a collectors point of view, the pattern of wootz is oftern associated with a particular region. For example, I would typically associate sham style wootz with Turkey or Syria. Low contrast wootz with a fine granular structure is most often associated with India. Very bold, high contrast wootz is often associated with Persia although you do find similar patterning in some Sosun Pata and Khanda that are almost certainly Indian. I even have an example of Russian forged wootz that has very little contrast but the pattern is tight and consistent throughout the blade. I have also noticed some other interesting features. One is heat treatment. I have a number of blades which exhibit a "hamon" of sorts, essentially a darkened zone along the edge due to the heat treatment. I have seen blades that seem only to be heat treated at the tip or in certain spots of the blade. One very interesting blade in my collection actually has a high carbon edge plate that has been inserted into wootz "cheeks". Now, imagine what potential cutting properties this sword might have. You have a high carbon edge plate which can be very hard and sharp with cheeks of wootz steel which can be quite pliable. I even have an "unknown" blade that is extremely thin, extremely pliable but is quite hard and tough throughout as an interesting variant.

You also see varying degrees of success in the overall controlling of heat of a blade. I have seen a few fine blades with really nice patterns that just melt away or disappear in areas where the heat was not controlled. I have an example of an Indian shamshir that broke in two in its life but was welded back together with practically no loss of the wootz pattern. In a day and time when controlling temperature must have been difficult, it seems the smiths had abilities to do some interesting things.

All this says is that wootz provides a fascinating variety of patterns, contrasts, colorations, heat treats, etc. that I think it is impossible to lump into one big broad category. It seems like one of those endeavors the more you learn about it, the more you realize is unknown. But isn't that the fun!

29th November 2006, 03:09 PM	#3
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The steel I make typically runs a little higher in silicon and quite a bit lower in phosphorus compared to the analyses in the JOM article, but I recently got an ingot with comparable phosphorus that has great pattern, even though it's 0.73% Carbon...but I also get good patterns with low phosphorus, so I'm not sure what that means Need...more...data Attached Images

29th November 2006, 01:56 PM	#2
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi yes.. i believe the definition of wootz does wander all over the place for reasons.... ask yourself some questions... - why does the definition wander - why does the current definition follow the patent on wootz - was wootz a lost secret prior to the patent ?? - was a proper survey done before making the above claim - Do accurate recipes exist that are from ancient records and are accessible with university interlibrary loan..? ..... did they exist prior to the patent ? or did they magically appear after the patent? I know i ask alot of questions... but I can't help my self... .. i have to stir the pot sometimes.. Manolo: the problem with comparing Euro smiths to Indian/Persian smiths is that they basing their smithing practices on much different materials... ... that is why the Euro smiths had a hard time with forging wootz... as the wootz material has to be forged at a much lower heat than what they safely use for their sword material.... now with the same technique... i believe it maybe possible with some of the european ores..... remember the carbide formers are micro alloys... very small amount is needed.. -- but the carbon level is critical to making the high carb wootz... My homebrew wootz is made alot of the time with cast iron cut with mild iron.... but now a days... there is alot of tramp elements in the scrap iron... so you have to watch it... .. our metal standards are going down hill.. -- i've made all sorts of wootz from scrap... ..some with 52100 and cast iron.... with assorted springsteels and cast... 1018 iron and charcoal.... wrought and charcoal... i know Jeff uses local ore and Ric will use that high purity iron I'd love to get some ore from the old areas... and try my hand at it... ... i thought awhile back that Achim did something like that.... i know he's worked some old ingots so much wootz, so little time Greg

29th November 2006, 11:09 PM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Greg, I wasn't even aware that Wootz was patented. Who took out the patent and what exactly was patented? The composition or forging? Or both? Jeff, That blade's pattern is very beautiful. Given its hypoeutectoid composition, did you quench harden it? Are the patterns due to Ferrite or carbides? Cheers Chris

30th November 2006, 12:52 AM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Nice work, Jeff.... thats real sweet ! Hi Chris... .. I spent a good bit of time... but i finally dug up the patent on the us patent site... so you can look for your self.. its alway better to see references first hand.. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...us&RS=damascus I don't believe its been challenged

30th November 2006, 01:24 AM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Greg, Many thanks for that link - That patent explains a lot that I couldn't understand. Cheers Chris

30th November 2006, 02:00 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	As a collector of wootz blades this has been an enlightening and quite enjoyable discussion. While I am not an experienced metalurgist to contribute to the discussion, I have made casual observations in the various wootz blades I have handled over the years or are in my collection. The first is that from a collectors point of view, the pattern of wootz is oftern associated with a particular region. For example, I would typically associate sham style wootz with Turkey or Syria. Low contrast wootz with a fine granular structure is most often associated with India. Very bold, high contrast wootz is often associated with Persia although you do find similar patterning in some Sosun Pata and Khanda that are almost certainly Indian. I even have an example of Russian forged wootz that has very little contrast but the pattern is tight and consistent throughout the blade. I have also noticed some other interesting features. One is heat treatment. I have a number of blades which exhibit a "hamon" of sorts, essentially a darkened zone along the edge due to the heat treatment. I have seen blades that seem only to be heat treated at the tip or in certain spots of the blade. One very interesting blade in my collection actually has a high carbon edge plate that has been inserted into wootz "cheeks". Now, imagine what potential cutting properties this sword might have. You have a high carbon edge plate which can be very hard and sharp with cheeks of wootz steel which can be quite pliable. I even have an "unknown" blade that is extremely thin, extremely pliable but is quite hard and tough throughout as an interesting variant. You also see varying degrees of success in the overall controlling of heat of a blade. I have seen a few fine blades with really nice patterns that just melt away or disappear in areas where the heat was not controlled. I have an example of an Indian shamshir that broke in two in its life but was welded back together with practically no loss of the wootz pattern. In a day and time when controlling temperature must have been difficult, it seems the smiths had abilities to do some interesting things. All this says is that wootz provides a fascinating variety of patterns, contrasts, colorations, heat treats, etc. that I think it is impossible to lump into one big broad category. It seems like one of those endeavors the more you learn about it, the more you realize is unknown. But isn't that the fun!