Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.

Hi Jens,

I'm sorry to be confusing... I was not asking about arsenic, it’s that I am making an assumption on the chemistry involved. I am assuming (a bad thing to do) the simplest reaction here (maybe someone will jump in and say this is an exotic organic salt of arsenic being formed with the lime juice instead.

)

Keep in mind that 99.31% (according to this analysis) is iron (Fe) and Nickel (Ni). That means 0.69% will be other elements... they are present only in very small amounts. Check out carbon steel, I believe you will fine that it is not as "pure" or (in other words) that it will have other "stuff" in it, in larger amounts (it is an alloy after all). Nickel-iron meteorites were not "designed" or "created" for the same purpose or use as alloyed steel. That's why most of them (un-alloyed) are not very "workable" in a forging process.

BSMStar

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2005, 12:58 AM

Hi Nechesh,
Well said! I didn't mean to take exception to what you were saying, but a guy like me who has cradled that book for this many years develops a distinct bond with it

I guess I got a bit defensive, my apologies.
I think both of our views together are pretty good perspective, and that Stone himself would very much approve of the work we are all doing here.
I like the way you define and support the material being discussed, and we all benefit from the knowledge shared.
Back to work!!!

All the best,
Jim

rasdan · 16th February 2005, 08:44 AM

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th February 2005, 10:42 AM

Hi BSMStar,
Don’t worry I try to follow as best I can, and I think it is interesting what you write. Yes I know about the carbon steel, and remember my surprise when I first saw it, that such a small concentration could have such a big influence.

Hi rasdan,
In 1621 a meteor was found in India and brought to Shah Jahangir who said: 'I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces'.
If he had this knowledge, he must have tried to work with meteoric iron before, and lived to use his knowledge about the iron. I don't think you need to be afraid, but to be on the safe side, I think that an analyze would show if there is any danger.

Rick,
Thank you for the link. I almost fell off my chair when I opened the link, but after some time - getting used to all the colours

I vagely began to understand a little, although I still miss a lot - hopefully the understanding will come.

Jens

BSMStar · 16th February 2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

Hi rasdan!

I understand, I think you are Ok with the metallic part of the Nantan. There shouldn't be any volatile components there... but there may be a small amount volatile inclusions scatter through the meteorite. It is not wise to breathe the vapors from "hot" iron... so if the smith is using adequate ventilation and proper procedures.....
You may want to be sure you are working with an un-oxidized meteorite. Nantan is and old "fall" and has weathered for 400 years. Most of the pieces will mainly be iron oxides rather than workable metallic iron. Your Smith will know when they go to forge it and it will "fall apart under the hammer."

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

BSMStar

Henk · 16th February 2005, 06:57 PM

Depending to the books of Tammens there should be a lot of keris made from meteorite iron.

Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and older keris showed after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. Tammens, part 1, chapter Pamor, the soul of the kris.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th February 2005, 09:38 PM

I must say, I don't know much about kerise's - close to nothing if I have to be honest, but when reading another thread it seems to be close to impossible to recognice meteroric metal, when the blade has been made. Did I miss something?

Jens

Henk · 17th February 2005, 09:59 AM

I don't think you missed anything Jens, this is a very hard subject.

Tammens refers in his book to this forging with meteorite metall and mentions the differences between the meteorite pamor and the pamor made from pure nickle bars, mixed with the common iron. The pamor that comes up is very bright and the pamor from meteor iron has softer tones and gives more non pamor fields on the blade. But to be honest, I cann't recognize metoric pamor. But if we may believe the literature and research has been done, there should be alot of kerisses around made with meteoric pamor.

16th February 2005, 10:42 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSMStar, Don’t worry I try to follow as best I can, and I think it is interesting what you write. Yes I know about the carbon steel, and remember my surprise when I first saw it, that such a small concentration could have such a big influence. Hi rasdan, In 1621 a meteor was found in India and brought to Shah Jahangir who said: 'I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces'. If he had this knowledge, he must have tried to work with meteoric iron before, and lived to use his knowledge about the iron. I don't think you need to be afraid, but to be on the safe side, I think that an analyze would show if there is any danger. Rick, Thank you for the link. I almost fell off my chair when I opened the link, but after some time - getting used to all the colours I vagely began to understand a little, although I still miss a lot - hopefully the understanding will come. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 16th February 2005 at 10:52 AM.

16th February 2005, 12:58 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Hi Nechesh, Well said! I didn't mean to take exception to what you were saying, but a guy like me who has cradled that book for this many years develops a distinct bond with it I guess I got a bit defensive, my apologies. I think both of our views together are pretty good perspective, and that Stone himself would very much approve of the work we are all doing here. I like the way you define and support the material being discussed, and we all benefit from the knowledge shared. Back to work!!! All the best, Jim

16th February 2005, 08:44 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi guys, Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

16th February 2005, 06:57 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Depending to the books of Tammens there should be a lot of keris made from meteorite iron. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and older keris showed after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. Tammens, part 1, chapter Pamor, the soul of the kris.

16th February 2005, 09:38 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I must say, I don't know much about kerise's - close to nothing if I have to be honest, but when reading another thread it seems to be close to impossible to recognice meteroric metal, when the blade has been made. Did I miss something? Jens

17th February 2005, 09:59 AM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I don't think you missed anything Jens, this is a very hard subject. Tammens refers in his book to this forging with meteorite metall and mentions the differences between the meteorite pamor and the pamor made from pure nickle bars, mixed with the common iron. The pamor that comes up is very bright and the pamor from meteor iron has softer tones and gives more non pamor fields on the blade. But to be honest, I cann't recognize metoric pamor. But if we may believe the literature and research has been done, there should be alot of kerisses around made with meteoric pamor.