Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

fearn · 15th February 2005, 02:50 PM

Jens, you beat me to it!

Yes, Rasdan, by all means, have some sort of chemical analysis done. It's for more than our curiosity--it might also be useful to the empu who does the work, to know what's in the meteorite you bring him before he starts working on it. It will be interesting to see how the pamor develops in such a blade.

Nechesh, thanks for discussing Prof. Piakowski's work. Now, if some chemist in the group will explain how arsenic binds differentially to phosphorus to produce the light and dark pamor bands, I'll be happy

Fearn

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2005, 08:31 PM

I must say that I had started to wonder why this question was not asked, but maybe it has something to do with different time zones. But who asks the questions if of no difference, the interesting thing is to get the answers.

Jens

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 08:40 PM

Rasdan,

I believe the Nantan has already been analyzed.

www.greatwallct.com/nantan.htm

The average Chemical composition in the Nantan meteorites are: Fe 92.35%, Ni 6.96%, belonging to IIICD type of iron meteorite based on the taxonomy of Wasson and others (1980). The following trace elements have been detected: C, Cu, Co, S, P, Cr, Ga, Ge, As, Sb, W, Re, Ir, Au, Ru, Pd, Os, Pr, and Mn. Ag, Cd, and Pb isotopes have been analyzed by Prof. Wang Daode and others (1993). http://www.pgrgem.com/color/datasheets/pgrmold.html

You may find more info surfing the net... but it looks like this meteorite may be a poor choice due to weathering.

fearn,

I'm going out on a limb here... so correct me if I am wrong. Realgar and Orpiment are an Arsenic Sulfide. In an acidic environment, the sulfur is released and bonds to the iron creating an Iron Sulfide (the brownish black color that is difficult to reproduce). Phosphorus will react to make a Phosphorus Sulfide, which is a pale yellow in color.

Here are some interesting links

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...readid=4873&s=
http://www.sanztrust.org.nz/archives/knife.html
http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/Howto.htm

BMStar

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2005, 10:07 PM

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.
So you did know about analyze.
Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’.

Jens

Rick · 15th February 2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.
So you did know about analyze.
Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’.

Jens

This link might be of some help Jens .

http://www.chemicool.com/

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.

Hi Jens,

I'm sorry to be confusing... I was not asking about arsenic, it’s that I am making an assumption on the chemistry involved. I am assuming (a bad thing to do) the simplest reaction here (maybe someone will jump in and say this is an exotic organic salt of arsenic being formed with the lime juice instead.

)

Keep in mind that 99.31% (according to this analysis) is iron (Fe) and Nickel (Ni). That means 0.69% will be other elements... they are present only in very small amounts. Check out carbon steel, I believe you will fine that it is not as "pure" or (in other words) that it will have other "stuff" in it, in larger amounts (it is an alloy after all). Nickel-iron meteorites were not "designed" or "created" for the same purpose or use as alloyed steel. That's why most of them (un-alloyed) are not very "workable" in a forging process.

BSMStar

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2005, 12:58 AM

Hi Nechesh,
Well said! I didn't mean to take exception to what you were saying, but a guy like me who has cradled that book for this many years develops a distinct bond with it

I guess I got a bit defensive, my apologies.
I think both of our views together are pretty good perspective, and that Stone himself would very much approve of the work we are all doing here.
I like the way you define and support the material being discussed, and we all benefit from the knowledge shared.
Back to work!!!

All the best,
Jim

rasdan · 16th February 2005, 08:44 AM

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th February 2005, 10:42 AM

Hi BSMStar,
Don’t worry I try to follow as best I can, and I think it is interesting what you write. Yes I know about the carbon steel, and remember my surprise when I first saw it, that such a small concentration could have such a big influence.

Hi rasdan,
In 1621 a meteor was found in India and brought to Shah Jahangir who said: 'I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces'.
If he had this knowledge, he must have tried to work with meteoric iron before, and lived to use his knowledge about the iron. I don't think you need to be afraid, but to be on the safe side, I think that an analyze would show if there is any danger.

Rick,
Thank you for the link. I almost fell off my chair when I opened the link, but after some time - getting used to all the colours

I vagely began to understand a little, although I still miss a lot - hopefully the understanding will come.

Jens

BSMStar · 16th February 2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.

Hi rasdan!

I understand, I think you are Ok with the metallic part of the Nantan. There shouldn't be any volatile components there... but there may be a small amount volatile inclusions scatter through the meteorite. It is not wise to breathe the vapors from "hot" iron... so if the smith is using adequate ventilation and proper procedures.....
You may want to be sure you are working with an un-oxidized meteorite. Nantan is and old "fall" and has weathered for 400 years. Most of the pieces will mainly be iron oxides rather than workable metallic iron. Your Smith will know when they go to forge it and it will "fall apart under the hammer."

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

BSMStar

15th February 2005, 08:31 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I must say that I had started to wonder why this question was not asked, but maybe it has something to do with different time zones. But who asks the questions if of no difference, the interesting thing is to get the answers. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 16th February 2005 at 10:47 AM.

16th February 2005, 10:42 AM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSMStar, Don’t worry I try to follow as best I can, and I think it is interesting what you write. Yes I know about the carbon steel, and remember my surprise when I first saw it, that such a small concentration could have such a big influence. Hi rasdan, In 1621 a meteor was found in India and brought to Shah Jahangir who said: 'I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces'. If he had this knowledge, he must have tried to work with meteoric iron before, and lived to use his knowledge about the iron. I don't think you need to be afraid, but to be on the safe side, I think that an analyze would show if there is any danger. Rick, Thank you for the link. I almost fell off my chair when I opened the link, but after some time - getting used to all the colours I vagely began to understand a little, although I still miss a lot - hopefully the understanding will come. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 16th February 2005 at 10:52 AM.

15th February 2005, 02:50 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Jens, you beat me to it! Yes, Rasdan, by all means, have some sort of chemical analysis done. It's for more than our curiosity--it might also be useful to the empu who does the work, to know what's in the meteorite you bring him before he starts working on it. It will be interesting to see how the pamor develops in such a blade. Nechesh, thanks for discussing Prof. Piakowski's work. Now, if some chemist in the group will explain how arsenic binds differentially to phosphorus to produce the light and dark pamor bands, I'll be happy Fearn

15th February 2005, 08:40 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rasdan, I believe the Nantan has already been analyzed. www.greatwallct.com/nantan.htm The average Chemical composition in the Nantan meteorites are: Fe 92.35%, Ni 6.96%, belonging to IIICD type of iron meteorite based on the taxonomy of Wasson and others (1980). The following trace elements have been detected: C, Cu, Co, S, P, Cr, Ga, Ge, As, Sb, W, Re, Ir, Au, Ru, Pd, Os, Pr, and Mn. Ag, Cd, and Pb isotopes have been analyzed by Prof. Wang Daode and others (1993). http://www.pgrgem.com/color/datasheets/pgrmold.html You may find more info surfing the net... but it looks like this meteorite may be a poor choice due to weathering. fearn, I'm going out on a limb here... so correct me if I am wrong. Realgar and Orpiment are an Arsenic Sulfide. In an acidic environment, the sulfur is released and bonds to the iron creating an Iron Sulfide (the brownish black color that is difficult to reproduce). Phosphorus will react to make a Phosphorus Sulfide, which is a pale yellow in color. Here are some interesting links http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...readid=4873&s= http://www.sanztrust.org.nz/archives/knife.html http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/Howto.htm BMStar

15th February 2005, 10:07 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic. So you did know about analyze. Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’. Jens

16th February 2005, 12:58 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Hi Nechesh, Well said! I didn't mean to take exception to what you were saying, but a guy like me who has cradled that book for this many years develops a distinct bond with it I guess I got a bit defensive, my apologies. I think both of our views together are pretty good perspective, and that Stone himself would very much approve of the work we are all doing here. I like the way you define and support the material being discussed, and we all benefit from the knowledge shared. Back to work!!! All the best, Jim

16th February 2005, 08:44 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi guys, Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks.