Yataghan or bayonet?

tom hyle · 18th November 2006, 10:45 PM

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

not2sharp · 20th November 2006, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

I agree with Tom; this looks like a purpose made short sword. Just about every Western power made some of these during the 19th century. The US had an 1870s Coast Guard dress sword with a yatagan blade, and countless variations were also produced for verteran organizations, social groups, and private purchase.

Here is one that originally sold as a souvenir at the US Columbian Exposition.

n2s

Robert · 20th November 2006, 05:14 AM

I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me.

Robert

Robert · 20th November 2006, 05:16 PM

OK, I must have given the one I was talking about to my Grandson but here is another. Total length is 27-3/8" with a 22-1/2" blade. This one has an iron guard and brass grip. One thing I meant to mention is that a lot of the small swords that were made for the World Colombian Exposition (in particular the Guards swords) were made by the Ames Sword Company and were made from left over bayonet blades. Hope this helps.

Robert

not2sharp · 20th November 2006, 11:02 PM

Here is a Spanish model 1881 machete sidearm - which also had a yataghan blade.

n2s

tom hyle · 4th December 2006, 06:16 PM

Yes, old bayonets are rehilted (believe me, I know; I do it), but that is not reason to leap instantly to such conclusion for any dagger or sword with a blade similar, or even identical, to a certain bayonet, as there is the other thing and it still goes on, even (check a US cutler named Ontario and their spec plus knives). On another note, the original sword has a cross-section like no bayonet I've seen; certainly not like the one seen here. The blade is T-section AND has an additional fuller; the Chassepot and other similar bayonets (including interestingly some Turkish ones) has IMITATED a raised/applied-spine and a reinforced edge with a flat-bottomed fuller; they have only one groove; not the more complex situation seen here. I don't think this is even a blade that was ALSO used for bayonets; it's just a sword, IMHO; no sign of anything else.
BTW, I love the ferule, which obviates the need for a rivet holding down the bottom tip of the scales, the hole for which weakens so many blades (though this one still has a rivet closer than neccessary to the guard). This practice seems to have gone extinct(?).
I love the Spainish army; every thing is a machete

TVV · 9th December 2006, 07:54 AM

Now how about this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019

I do not like it, but this is beside the point. I do not think this was ever a bayonet.

20th November 2006, 05:16 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, I must have given the one I was talking about to my Grandson but here is another. Total length is 27-3/8" with a 22-1/2" blade. This one has an iron guard and brass grip. One thing I meant to mention is that a lot of the small swords that were made for the World Colombian Exposition (in particular the Guards swords) were made by the Ames Sword Company and were made from left over bayonet blades. Hope this helps. Robert Attached Images

18th November 2006, 10:45 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

20th November 2006, 05:14 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me. Robert

20th November 2006, 11:02 PM	#5
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Here is a Spanish model 1881 machete sidearm - which also had a yataghan blade. n2s

4th December 2006, 06:16 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, old bayonets are rehilted (believe me, I know; I do it), but that is not reason to leap instantly to such conclusion for any dagger or sword with a blade similar, or even identical, to a certain bayonet, as there is the other thing and it still goes on, even (check a US cutler named Ontario and their spec plus knives). On another note, the original sword has a cross-section like no bayonet I've seen; certainly not like the one seen here. The blade is T-section AND has an additional fuller; the Chassepot and other similar bayonets (including interestingly some Turkish ones) has IMITATED a raised/applied-spine and a reinforced edge with a flat-bottomed fuller; they have only one groove; not the more complex situation seen here. I don't think this is even a blade that was ALSO used for bayonets; it's just a sword, IMHO; no sign of anything else. BTW, I love the ferule, which obviates the need for a rivet holding down the bottom tip of the scales, the hole for which weakens so many blades (though this one still has a rivet closer than neccessary to the guard). This practice seems to have gone extinct(?). I love the Spainish army; every thing is a machete

9th December 2006, 07:54 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,717	Now how about this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019 I do not like it, but this is beside the point. I do not think this was ever a bayonet.