Review of "Arms and Armour from Iran" by M. Khorasani

tsubame1 · 16th November 2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi tsubame,
sorry, i meant to write venice, italy!!

San Marco ! I'm in Venice 4/5 times each year, but I always saw at the
"pala d'oro" with "Cristo Pantocratore" the few times I was in the Basilica. Didn't noticed that dagger. I always was much more interested in the Palazzo ducale armory and ca' Pesaro japanese collection.
A good piece to dig in. The treasure is usually well documented on where and when it was sacked by the venetian armies. But this might mean noting
about the real age of the item. Seem i'll need help of a specialist in easter weaponry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

i am curious of your capacity to open the church doors. what is it you do?

My mother maiden name is "Casaroli" and was born in Castel San Giovanni, Piacenza. Google "Cardinal Casaroli"

You know, the two oldest lobbies in the world are jews and chatolic priests.
In venice you can find both. You definitively have to go to visit "Ghetto vecio" (the old ghetto). One of the least known and most beautiful sites in Venice.

B.I · 16th November 2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

My mother maiden name is "Casaroli" and was born in Castel San Giovanni, Piacenza. Google "Cardinal Casaroli"

You know, the two oldest lobbies in the world are jews and chatolic priests.
In venice you can find both. You definitively have to go to visit "Ghetto vecio" (the old ghetto). One of the least known and most beautiful sites in Venice.

please dont!!
my girlfriend has constantly reminded me of a fantastic jewish restaurant that we stumbled across in the old quarter. unfortunately, we had just eaten, and we had no time to go back. everytime we walk past even a bagel shop, she mentions it. i am glad she doesnt read this forum!!
your relation seems to have been quite a guy!! the treasures he must have seen having access to the vatican.
i strongly recommend the civic museum on the other end of the square (across from the basilica). they have a couple of room of captured turkish weapons of outstanding quality and rarity. the museum is not known, and the weapons not mentioned in any guide.
please do try to get images of the dagger, as it would be a wonderful piece to talk about here.

tsubame1 · 17th November 2006, 10:49 AM

Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr.
The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

B.I · 17th November 2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr.
The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

it was indeed the museo correr. search the forum for a post called 'hidden room 2' for images i took. found out that the basilica dagger has been published twice, but not in english. will find the references next week.
kirill, apologies for diverting and hijacking your post.

Rivkin · 18th November 2006, 09:54 PM

1. I did offer someone to coauthor the review, but we had a much too violent disagreement on whether "iron" is a variation of "iran" (as he believes), or, as per Abaev, Oranevsky :") and others one must consider an autochtonous origin. However, I did email prior to the publication a copy of this review to some forumite, mostly those who liked the book.

2. I have been interested in the subject for a while, so I did collect some references. I am however not a specialist (sorry for repeating), so I did expect that for example Dr. Feuerbach, who actually _did_ work with alanic weapons would find some error in my statements.

3. Actually one of the biggest challenges of working with weapons is that most of the publications, outside of some very old weapons for which one should check the archeology publications, occur often in God forsaken journals. Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

4. Concerning weapons in general, we know too little right now. Iranian shamshirs as a type where made virtually in the whole middle east and attributing them can be hard to impossible, I have seen 2-6 pages full of references dedicated to a _single_ controversial sword, simply citing different opinions - what area is this "rumi" style is most characteristic for, what kind of koftgari technique is used (for example in Dagestan they like the koftgari to be elevated with respect to the sword's surface, i.e. the gold writing sticks out of plane). There are a lot of weapons that we know from textual information, but don't know how they look like - for example there is a lot of evidence that in 1600-1730's Karabagh (Azerbaijan/Armenia) was a huge center of arms production of swords and guns by local armenians, something like 3000 muskets per year. The weapons made where distinctive types of shamshirs and straight broadswords (as described by Ivan Karapet and others). Now do we know how these weapons look like, i.e. which of current "iranian shamshirs" come from this area ? Or, for example, can one make some sort of a conclusion from the statement that wide appearance of stamped marks on blades made in Tbilisi, practise quite characteristic of Northern Iran/Azaerbaijan coincides with a start of a massive migration of Armenians from Northern Iran to Tbilisi ?
Or, for example, Arakel Davrizhezi writes that in the time of Abbas II the sharpest and biggest shamshirs were designed to chop lamb's head with a single stroke, and was used by jewish butchers, and therefore if it was discovered in a house of a muslim, such person would be assumed to be a secret jew. Again, what are the shamshirs he talks about ?

tsubame1 · 18th November 2006, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

I fully understand you.
Ethics is of paramount importance in avoiding a lawsuit by the original writer.
Of the Ph D thesis, of course...
Well, many good words, but just words only to me. As you, I'm not an expert too, and I am not able to make cross references with the information you give.
Thanks anyway for the hard work.

Ann Feuerbach · 23rd November 2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

I have been very busy with conferences, publication, teaching, birthdays, Thanksgiving and a horrible cold on top, so I have not been able to digest your review. However, please include all references you know of, I have access to Interlibrary loan and can often get very obscure articles, even if I have not time to read them (or get them translated).

17th November 2006, 10:49 AM	#3
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr. The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

18th November 2006, 09:54 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. I did offer someone to coauthor the review, but we had a much too violent disagreement on whether "iron" is a variation of "iran" (as he believes), or, as per Abaev, Oranevsky :") and others one must consider an autochtonous origin. However, I did email prior to the publication a copy of this review to some forumite, mostly those who liked the book. 2. I have been interested in the subject for a while, so I did collect some references. I am however not a specialist (sorry for repeating), so I did expect that for example Dr. Feuerbach, who actually _did_ work with alanic weapons would find some error in my statements. 3. Actually one of the biggest challenges of working with weapons is that most of the publications, outside of some very old weapons for which one should check the archeology publications, occur often in God forsaken journals. Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical. 4. Concerning weapons in general, we know too little right now. Iranian shamshirs as a type where made virtually in the whole middle east and attributing them can be hard to impossible, I have seen 2-6 pages full of references dedicated to a _single_ controversial sword, simply citing different opinions - what area is this "rumi" style is most characteristic for, what kind of koftgari technique is used (for example in Dagestan they like the koftgari to be elevated with respect to the sword's surface, i.e. the gold writing sticks out of plane). There are a lot of weapons that we know from textual information, but don't know how they look like - for example there is a lot of evidence that in 1600-1730's Karabagh (Azerbaijan/Armenia) was a huge center of arms production of swords and guns by local armenians, something like 3000 muskets per year. The weapons made where distinctive types of shamshirs and straight broadswords (as described by Ivan Karapet and others). Now do we know how these weapons look like, i.e. which of current "iranian shamshirs" come from this area ? Or, for example, can one make some sort of a conclusion from the statement that wide appearance of stamped marks on blades made in Tbilisi, practise quite characteristic of Northern Iran/Azaerbaijan coincides with a start of a massive migration of Armenians from Northern Iran to Tbilisi ? Or, for example, Arakel Davrizhezi writes that in the time of Abbas II the sharpest and biggest shamshirs were designed to chop lamb's head with a single stroke, and was used by jewish butchers, and therefore if it was discovered in a house of a muslim, such person would be assumed to be a secret jew. Again, what are the shamshirs he talks about ?