Magnetic weapons

[Rivkin]

Most likely purpose have absolutely nothing to do with it. Anvil and hammer assuming they are magnetized (which is quite a logical assumption), they can create a very weird magnetic patterns in the forged blade. Not taking into account interactions in between of different parts of the blade, differential heat treatment, different chemical compositions.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread really is more and more fascinating!!
Yannis: thank you for the additional notes on Magnesia. I did see the reference to both regions when I read the entry in Brittanica, but left out that detail for simplicity in general reference. It seems to me the reference to the Cretan shepherd may likely be apocryphal. As always, I would defer to your outstanding knowledge of your country's history.

Jens: I have read the material on the link referring to Chinese mariners compasses being used some 4500 years ago, but cannot find anything to support the authors statement. Most of my research is based on Encyclopedia Brittanica data which notes (under 'compass') "...there is no genuine record of a Chinese maritime compass before 1297 AD as Kalproth admits".
*"Letire a' M.LeBaron Humboldt sur l'invention de la boussele" J. Kalproth, 1840, p.57 (bossola=It. term for compass, used by Muslims).
The Brittanica states further that the earliest allusion to the power of lodestone in Chinese literature occurs in a Chinese dictionary in 121 AD defining the stone as giving attraction to a needle. There is however myth suggesting a Chinese emperor created a chariot to indicate south (the Chinese compasses focused south, while European north) and the four cardinal directions, c.2634 BC. This period would fall loosely into that suggested in the material noting 4500 year old date, but it would seem that data remains largely subjective.
Naturally more recent research has discovered considerable new material concerning early Chinese maritime history as we have found in the book "1421", so more must be considered before any conclusions can be drawn.

Concerning the use of lodestone in smelting steel:
Robert Elgood in "Arms & Armour of Arabia in 18th & 19th c." on p.107 states. "...Birdwood (1880) wrote that 20 miles east of Nirmal and a few miles south of the Shisha hills occurs the hornblende slate or schist from which the magnetic iron used for ages in the manufacture of damascus steel, and by the Persians for their swordblades is obtained."
"The Industrial Arts of India" G.C.M.Birdwood, London, 1880, p.50

Elgood also notes on p.86 that HH Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti described to him how magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raised the esteem of the blade. He notes that the very best janbiyya and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made. These blades were referred to generally as 'Haiderabad'.

It would seem that magnetite was certainly present in certain wootz from India, although not necessarily in all of it. It is noted that wootz was also of course smelted in Kona Samundrum (southern India) where much of this product was exported particularly to Persia as the raw material in cakes.
It is not specified that any magnetic properties existed in this form of wootz.

I think the observations concerning creating magnetic polarity by filing consistantly as described is interesting, and while certainly non relevant to magnetism, I think it is interesting to note that the force of static electricity also creates the property of attraction in textiles. With the forces of nature, and as we well know in the aviation industry, static electricity can be deadly near volatile materials. On a lesser note, the same force can be maddening for women wearing certain clothing on a dry, windy day .. the dreaded static cling!!

Now ask me as I sit in the rubble of notes and stacked books here in my den, how in the world did I get from ancient Chinese navigational history and the production of steel in India to static cling in womens skirts!!?
I need some rest !!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,

Brilliant - that is what I had hoped to hear, very good - thank you very much.

Best

Jens

[Yannis]

Jim

I am speechless and I bow to your superior knowledge!

I suppose that if Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti had this idea about magnetic blades, it was more possible to be an old idea.

Also, as we see, only some blades have strong field. Most books don’t mention it, so this idea was not widespread. My feeling now is that of an old oral tradition, a kind of secret between a weapons elite. So this elite could the right time demonstrate the secret power and benefit of it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Most likely purpose have absolutely nothing to do with it. Anvil and hammer assuming they are magnetized (which is quite a logical assumption), they can create a very weird magnetic patterns in the forged blade. Not taking into account interactions in between of different parts of the blade, differential heat treatment, different chemical compositions.

Yes that could be a possibility, but (sorry, I know all the 'buts' are iritating) if it was the hammer and the anvil, why are so few blade magnetic?
Different heating and maybe different chemicals used, as we do know they used different chemicals, could also be part of the process, but again, if so, why do we have so relativly few magnetic blades?

Yannis, the way I see it, I think you are comming frightfully close - but I am guessing, I can't prove it . Your mail made me remember something said about enamel making, it was either in Jeypore Enamels, 1886, by Jacob and Hendley, or in Indian Art at Delhi 1903, by Watt. In one of the places the author writes that some of the secrets about enemal making has been told by a named Englishman, and the authors attitude was that he should not have told the secrets.
If the attitude of the early writers was 'let the artists keep their secrets', one can not wonder why we find so few hints about magnetism in the books.

We still have a puzzle or two, and one is Gene's blade. Why does the magnetism change four times? I have been told that it is no problem to do this, but there must be a reason for someone to use his time to make the blade magnetic like it is .

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

Quote from JIM "Elgood also notes on p.86 that HH Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti described to him how magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raised the esteem of the blade. He notes that the very best janbiyya and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made. These blades were referred to generally as 'Haiderabad'"


JIM As far as I am concerned you have answered to my satisfaction the question on why the blades were magnetic in the first place, it was a desired quality by the makers and users of the blades.

Yannis I share with you the "speechless" comment you made, with folks like Jim with his never ceasing quest for knowledge and the desire to share it is what this forum is all about.

Now we just have got to keep Jens from posting for a day or two all these hard questions and let us absorb the good information.
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, I promise that I won’t ask any questions – at least not now.

Jim, I think I owe you an answer to the compass question. You are right, the one telling about the compass does not give any reference, so in order to compensate for this, I think we should shorten the time period with 1000 years, also I must admit, that a splinter swimming in a cup of water hardly can be called a compass, for this I will suggest, that we shorten the time period with 500 years – is this compensation agreeable with you?

Yes Gene, I know I promised, but this is only a 'small' question.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
Since you will not stop asking question on this great thread of yours
I will answer one at least, to me, it is a possibility, if in fact the magnetic properties of a blade were desirable as JIM states then more would be even better, it would be to me anyway.
I am still waiting for the equipment to visual demonstrate the magnetic effect on the Mysore dagger. Should be in this week, I hope.
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

How strong a magnet is a lodestone, and are different stones of different strength?
I think they may be, according to the amount of iron – but I am not sure.
If we accept, that the first compass (sorry JimJ) was a bucket of water with a splinter of lodestone floating on the water, how long time would it take before the stone started diving?
Should they have any use of this early compass, then either the lodestone must be a rather strong magnet – adjusting fast north-south, or the stone must be very light to give it time to adjust before diving.
Gene, I agree with Jim, that making swords and daggers always, especially in the early days, had something to do with mysticism. In the Nordic mythology the dwarfs made the weapons for the Gods, as they were a mystic people, who knew how to put whichever witchcraft desired into any blade. I think the idea of this has been Worldwide, the more a blade differed from another blade, the bigger the talismanic value – and a blade like yours would, I think, have a big talismanic value for the owner.

Jens

[fearn]

Hi Jens,

This is going off topic, but I think that, if you put the lodestone on a float (for instance, a piece of cork or wood) then it would float quite easily.

Fearn

[Jim McDougall]

Yannis and Gene, thank you very much for the kind words! As Gene notes, I am simply sharing information that I can find so we can all learn together, which is exactly what this forum is all about

Yes Jens, you are a tough professor!!! I may never get this huge mess in my den cleared up, but the games afoot, and we gotta keep going!
As I noted with the compass historical data, I think it would be extremely difficult to know even within the range you suggest exactly when the first application to maritime navigation for this phenomenon occurred. The data I noted is simply some that has been referenced, but overall..the jury is still out. The main point here has been that magnetic material had no given domestic or practical value until the actual development of compasses into general use. Even at that juncture there would have been no specific purpose for deliberate use of such material in sword blades.

Back to the presence of lodestone or magnetite in the wootz producing ores in India:
In Pant (p.90), he notes "...in India the steel ingots were carried from the Nirmal District of Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh), to Cutch, a maritime region on northwest coast of India and exported to Persia, Syria and the East African ports, whence they found their way to Europe".
He notes further production also at Kona Samundrum (in Hyderabad some 25 miles south of Nirmal) and at Dundurthy (14 miles east of Nirmal), and that some of these ores were mixed with some from Indore district.
It is noted further (p.92)that the ores at Kona Samundrum were a mixture of the local magnetic schist with a subordinate quantity of haemetites and the black ferruginous sands found along river beds and nullahs. These were mixed with some of the ferruginous quartzites and schist from the Indore district in proportions 3 to 2, then the mix crushed to a coarse sand. The powdered quartz and other useless matter was then rinsed from the ferrous material.
The complex and detailed description goes on, but I think this illustrates that certain magnetic material certainly did find inclusion in the materials used in wootz production here, but does not appear intentional.

I think that what was intentionally placed in the mix, besides the teak and bamboo charcoal were the leaves of certain trees or plants which were added for magical value (as well obviously as for the carboniferous content).
This is noted in Figiel (p.15) and the use of various plant material in smelting is discussed in Robert Elgoods new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" in numerous instances.

It is interesting to consider what natural phenomenon would have caused these schists in certain areas to become magnetic. In definition, schist(Gk.=splittable) is described as a class of crystalline rocks whose constituent minerals have more or less foliated (thin, separatable laminae) or parallel arrangement due to metamorphic action.
Here I would defer to our scientists, would that metamorphic action be the lightning strikes that create magnetite from lodestone?
In any case, it appears tht Hyderabad clearly is at least one defined location for magnetism in wootz.

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Could the material content on the metal influence more than rather ,,induced magnetism,, ?

[derek]

Very cool thread, guys.
It got me to dig out my old Lensatic liquid filled and test some blades. Of all my collection, the one that showed the most interesting affect was an Omani Jambiya with an old blade. It pulled all the way south at the base and then swung all the way north at the tip. Most of my swords did very little in comparison. The surprise was an old and well-used Tibetan Khampa work knife that swings the needle completely north.

-d

[Mare Rosu]

Jens
I have good news and bad news on my dagger I call Mysore ( I think that is a name that depicted my feelings when I dropped the dagger, My Sore!, I wish no disrespect to the good folks in Mysore India as my southern humor is at play here )
I have replaced the Period stone in the handle and it really looks good, that is the good news.
The bad news is that the magnetic field has changed after the drop. While the same N,S,N,S, pattern with my compass is still the same, the overall attraction is a lot less now, I will try to set up a visual display of the effect tomorrow using the Iron powder (no Jens I did not polish the rust off the Iron powder and take some pictures for posting here.
I have something else to confuse, (at least it is confussing to me, that for sure), you good forum folks about all of this, is that the compass needle does not change directions the same way as I move the compass over the blade, one time the needle goes counterclockwise and then it goes clockwise as I move the compass over the blade as it reverses direction. I would think it would always move in the same direction, I will post more information, tomorrow to make this a little more understanable.
Anyway things are getting back to normal with the repair done.
But the mystery of the Mysore Dagger goes on!
Gene

















b

[Radharc 59]

Hello all,

Jens suggested I check out this thread, and it's quite interesting. I am a custom knifemaker, and do everything from stock removal to forging blades, to hand forging my own Damascus (pattern welded) blades on occasion. I harden them myself, using various media, and get good results. However, I do not perform any specific processes to induce magnetic fields in any of them.

The topic made me curious, so I grabbed a compass and moved it along an assortment of my knives. The results were widely varied. Some hardly moved the needle, some made it spin wildly, and some spun it in one direction, then back in the other. Not sure what this says about the topic and folks' opinions, but it seems, for me at least, to simply be a random phenomenon.

Just my 2 cents.

Michael
www.radharcknives.com

[PUFF]

Interesting thread, indeed. I had forged a strong magnetic tanto blade too. It doesn't show any magnetic property until I heat treated. I accidentaly tempered it on a hot plate. The hot plate was for laboratory purpose with a magnetic stiring device. After tempered, the blade has so strong magnetic property that it can pick up a few 3 inches nails.

[Rick]

This phenomenon is also sometimes exhibited in stainless steel restaurant silverware of low to moderate quality ; the stuff is just stamped from sheet metal ; go figure ..

[Archit Patel]

Hi,
I have had similar experience and I tried "Adding" magnetic property to a hand forged dagger. I had used an old file for forging the dagger. After Forging, Initial grinding and heat treat ment, I honed it with carborundum stone (400-450 grit) with hand. Blade size was about 8.5 inches, and 1.5 inches wide. I honned it for about 12 hours in a span of one month.
It developed strong magnetic property in the center of the blade. I have not checked the calibration though but similar method did not worked on the blades forged from Leaf Srpings.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Archit Patel, and welcome to the forum .


I know that I started this monster thread, and when I did I did not imagine what it would develop into, but what I do know is, that many of those participating enjoyed it very much, and at the same time also learned a lot. This is what we all hope, to enjoy ourselves and to learn – so it was a good and interesting thread.

I don’t know much about metallurgy, so my guess may be totally wrong, but I would thing that the difference between the knife made out of a file, and the one made out of a Leaf Spring is, that the ‘file’ knife was treated with a grinding stone, and the Leaf Spring knife was probably not, or at least not so intensively. Is that correct?

Jens