Old Tibetan Phurba for comment or information

[Captain D]

Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Captain D

Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.

Sorry Captain D. You were blocked from posting as part of the new security features we implemented to block a bunch of spammers who were hitting the site. It is necessary to be formally "signed in" by a Moderator after you submit your first post (just so we know you are legit ) Sometimes we are a little slow in getting to the new postings.

Glad we could get you up and running, if a little tardy.

ian.

[katana]

Hello...welcome..and thankyou Captain D... I appreciate your efforts...I have had great difficulty in 'tying' this Phurba to a specific tribe or people. I have been 'googling' every search keyword I could think of and have not found a similar sized or decorated example. I even searched all the 'tourist/ gift ' type sellers/outlets from Asia in case this was made for 'those that like to travel'......but nothing.
I am beginning to feel that this is, indeed, authentic (made for spiritual purposes...rather than 'decoration' and is of ethnic origin) and is something that I cannot help but 'pick up' everytime I pass it......I hope this is not an indication of the possible (evil ?? ) 'power' it may pocess

[Battara]

Welcome Capt D,

Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great.

[Captain D]

Originally Posted by Battara

Welcome Capt D,

Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great.

Actually, Bon is the indigenous, pre-Buddhist religion of Tibet. Bon practitioners regard it as being a form of Buddhism that pre-dates Gautama Buddha by tens of millenia. It contains many elements of Central Asian shamanism, one of which is the ritual use of the phurba. I have never seen a Mongolian phurba, neither in person nor in a pic. My conjecture about the subject of this thread being Mongolian is just that: conjecture. However, given the reported extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, from Delhi, India to Japan, it could be from many places. The key, I think, is in identifying the typology of the non-iconographic carving which covers this unusual piece. Ideally, identifying the wood would be helpful as well. The Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism as an official religion many centuries ago. Unfortunately, the Mongolians suffered the same cultural deprivation at the hands of the Chinese that the Tibetans did, and much of the cultural material related to their religious beliefs was destroyed, so I imagine Mongolian phurba, especially wooden ones, to be rare indeed.

[katana]

Hi Captain D,
I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again

[RSWORD]

This thread might be of interest

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2153

Several similar elements as on your piece. While it was quite unusual, I always felt it had some genuine age and wear to it and felt it possible that it had native use and was not something necessarily strictly tourist.

[Captain D]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Captain D,
I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again

Hi back, Katana,
Actually, I was refering to the non-iconographic elements of the carving as being a key to identifying this piece. The Buddhist symbolism is clear, the question is, what ethnic group is represented by the overall style of the way this piece was carved and of the other, ie. non-Buddhist carved decorations?

[Emanuel]

Hi David,
Very interesting phur-pa. I've ignored these so far, but reading about them has kindled my curiosity..they're fascinating artefacts. I've found a very detailed article on them: The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Ritual Daggers (1975 Huntington, John C.)
Some of the images in the article are somewhat similar to your example. The lotus leaves, the lower triangular blad ena dthe deity head are clear, but the upper part is indeed strange. The deity heads are indicated as being Bon-po...here are the pics, I could send you the article if you wish...it's very large.
All the best,
Emanuel

[spiral]

I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD?

Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach.

Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof.

Spiral

[Captain D]

Originally Posted by spiral

I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD?

Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach.

Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof.

Spiral

Padmasmbhava is credited in Tibetan Buddhism with discovering a phurba and the written precept for its use in a triangular stone receptacle, guarded by a scorpion, in a cave on the Tibetan side of the Himalayas during his passage from India to Tibet. That being the case, the phurba had already been in use for a long time before his arrival. He is said to have read the precept, and to have then perfected the existing phurba cult by integrating it into the Buddhist teachings he had brought with him from India. Today it is mainly used by monks of the Nyingmapa sect, as well as Bonpo.