Interesting Flyssa

ariel · 31st October 2006, 01:37 AM

Jim,
As a matter of fact, I never noticed that the Flyssa's pommel looks just like Karabela's!
If this is not a chancy fluke, then it is an argument in favour of Turkish, rather than Iranian, origin of Karabela's "eagle's head" pommel.
Indeed, rather than Iraqi Karbala, we may revisit a place neas Izmir, called Karabel.
We tried to stay away from the Black Sea Yataghan mine field ( Laz Bicagi), and I can hear a collective groan. But then (just bear with me, I am just a piano player!), there is a rather marked similarity in the "ricasso" part of the blade between Flyssa and BSY. Also, if we take a Flyssa and bend it along the long axis, we end up with a..... And I am not talking about a similarity between the tangs....
Once again, I am raiding Artzi's site

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1143
vs.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1003

BSY is like a bad habit: always comes back!

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2006, 04:43 AM

Hi Ariel,
Actually the trilobate 'karabela' type pommel I noted was on an Ottoman sword from the Maghreb, not on the typically seen flyssa, which also carries an unidentifiable zoomorphic pommel often suspected to be eagle or some significant bird. Interestingly the hilt noted is very much like certain Arabian saif of 18th c.as shown in Elgood, in the trilobed pommel, again much like karabelas. It seems generally held that the karabela hilt, though the term etymology is uncertain as is its origin, was well known in the Ottoman sphere.

The similarities between the Black Sea yataghan and the flyssa are clearly known and as I had noted, I feel that the significant presence of tribesmen from the regions established for BSY may account for such influences. This is especially noted in the needle type point, similar to Tatar sabres such as the Polish examples known as 'ordynka'. Many of these were produced in Armenian shops in Lvov, and it is interesting that the original accounts of the BSY, as early as Jacobsen (1941) and subsequently Siefert (1962) termed these recurved sabres Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. The tribesmen from Transcaucasian regions (another term applied to the BSY) that entered Ottoman forces in the Maghreb may have carried such weapons with them to these regions.
Naturally this is speculation, but while geographically distant, such diffusion within the Ottoman sphere seems entirely plausible.

I knew it would be hard to avoid dragging out the old BSY syndrome, but it really does seem pertinant here. As I noted before, your work in establishing the BSY as Laz Bicagi was great! and in my opinion pretty much closed the book on the mystery, despite the steadfast opposition which still disagrees.

It would seem that the rule of Occams 'yataghan' should apply!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 31st October 2006, 08:47 PM

Jim and Ham, thanks for the references, I will look them up.
Some interesting questions reguarding the adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan (BSY or regular kind) to the flyssa form are why was it done? Why straighten the blade and add a back edge? If a cavalry weapon, why not simply keep the nimcha and the other known berber sword form with the peculiar tip.

Further, where did the zoomorphic pommel as it looks on refined flyssa come from? Its specific form is not seen on other swords, even if the lobed shaped has Ottoman precedents. My point is that it must have had a period of development independent of Ottoman examples.

If the Iflissen and other tribes had a lucrative industry producing these swords, why import or keep mimicking yataghan blades?
Too many unanswered questions in my mind to convince me fully

but if the decorations are Turkic as Ham says, then the example I posted really gives me pause to reconsider. The article by Lacoste-Dujardin is the only published material I could find dedicated to these swords...the literature on them really ought to be updated.

These question really should be debated over a bottle of good liquor as Ariel so often suggests

would make for some good times.
Emanuel

katana · 10th April 2007, 05:59 PM

Hi Emanuel,
found this web page....in French....Babel-Fish translation not too good so I've linked to the French page.....some interesting images at the base of the page....

http://lunis1.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=7

Regards David

Emanuel · 10th April 2007, 07:07 PM

Hi David,
Thanks a lot the link, the whole site is very informative on the Kabyles, and the French is not a problem. I already acquired the treatise by Camille Lacoste-Desjardins "Sabres Kabyles". It is the most comprehensive and complete work on so subject that I could find. Quite extensive, and it is the principle source for the website you linked, and that of Pierre-Louis Cavaillé: http://blade.japet.com/flissa1.htm

I've been studying it for a while, and it could do with some updating. One area requiring further research revolves around an ancient stele depicting a warrior with a flyssa-like weapon in hand. I am currently looking through archaeological reports from diggs in Algeria, hoping to find some remains of pre-1800 Kabyle weapons. No luck yet, but there is a lot of info which leads me to continue questioning some of the assumptions presently held about the flyssa and the Kabyles.

If you're interested, I could provide you with a copy of it. It is in French though and you'd have to spend a lot of time with translator bots.

In the future I plan to invest a lot more time into this research and perhaps publish some modest work of my own

stay tuned my friend

All the best,
Emanuel

katana · 10th April 2007, 10:11 PM

Hi Emanuel,
sorry there was no new info

But when I found it ...you were the guy I thought of.....I don't think it's much of a secret how much you like Flyssa's

Please, when you get the chance, send me a copy.....my French is poor....but good enough that I can order a beer in France

If you do get to publish your work and would like it in PDF format.... I'm sure I can help....I have the necessary 'professional' PDF software but not the 'expertise'....but I'm sure I could 'muddle through' and do a good job.

Regards David

ward · 10th April 2007, 10:22 PM

Hello

Where can I get that article about flyssas

thx

Ward

Emanuel · 10th April 2007, 10:23 PM

Haaha thanks David!

I am indeed quite obsessed with this sword, even if I've never held one. Article coming up, and thanks for the offer

Emanuel

10th April 2007, 07:07 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi David, Thanks a lot the link, the whole site is very informative on the Kabyles, and the French is not a problem. I already acquired the treatise by Camille Lacoste-Desjardins "Sabres Kabyles". It is the most comprehensive and complete work on so subject that I could find. Quite extensive, and it is the principle source for the website you linked, and that of Pierre-Louis Cavaillé: http://blade.japet.com/flissa1.htm I've been studying it for a while, and it could do with some updating. One area requiring further research revolves around an ancient stele depicting a warrior with a flyssa-like weapon in hand. I am currently looking through archaeological reports from diggs in Algeria, hoping to find some remains of pre-1800 Kabyle weapons. No luck yet, but there is a lot of info which leads me to continue questioning some of the assumptions presently held about the flyssa and the Kabyles. If you're interested, I could provide you with a copy of it. It is in French though and you'd have to spend a lot of time with translator bots. In the future I plan to invest a lot more time into this research and perhaps publish some modest work of my own stay tuned my friend All the best, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 10th April 2007 at 10:07 PM. Reason: typo

31st October 2006, 01:37 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, As a matter of fact, I never noticed that the Flyssa's pommel looks just like Karabela's! If this is not a chancy fluke, then it is an argument in favour of Turkish, rather than Iranian, origin of Karabela's "eagle's head" pommel. Indeed, rather than Iraqi Karbala, we may revisit a place neas Izmir, called Karabel. We tried to stay away from the Black Sea Yataghan mine field ( Laz Bicagi), and I can hear a collective groan. But then (just bear with me, I am just a piano player!), there is a rather marked similarity in the "ricasso" part of the blade between Flyssa and BSY. Also, if we take a Flyssa and bend it along the long axis, we end up with a..... And I am not talking about a similarity between the tangs.... Once again, I am raiding Artzi's site http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1143 vs. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1003 BSY is like a bad habit: always comes back!

31st October 2006, 04:43 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Ariel, Actually the trilobate 'karabela' type pommel I noted was on an Ottoman sword from the Maghreb, not on the typically seen flyssa, which also carries an unidentifiable zoomorphic pommel often suspected to be eagle or some significant bird. Interestingly the hilt noted is very much like certain Arabian saif of 18th c.as shown in Elgood, in the trilobed pommel, again much like karabelas. It seems generally held that the karabela hilt, though the term etymology is uncertain as is its origin, was well known in the Ottoman sphere. The similarities between the Black Sea yataghan and the flyssa are clearly known and as I had noted, I feel that the significant presence of tribesmen from the regions established for BSY may account for such influences. This is especially noted in the needle type point, similar to Tatar sabres such as the Polish examples known as 'ordynka'. Many of these were produced in Armenian shops in Lvov, and it is interesting that the original accounts of the BSY, as early as Jacobsen (1941) and subsequently Siefert (1962) termed these recurved sabres Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. The tribesmen from Transcaucasian regions (another term applied to the BSY) that entered Ottoman forces in the Maghreb may have carried such weapons with them to these regions. Naturally this is speculation, but while geographically distant, such diffusion within the Ottoman sphere seems entirely plausible. I knew it would be hard to avoid dragging out the old BSY syndrome, but it really does seem pertinant here. As I noted before, your work in establishing the BSY as Laz Bicagi was great! and in my opinion pretty much closed the book on the mystery, despite the steadfast opposition which still disagrees. It would seem that the rule of Occams 'yataghan' should apply!! All the best, Jim

31st October 2006, 08:47 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Jim and Ham, thanks for the references, I will look them up. Some interesting questions reguarding the adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan (BSY or regular kind) to the flyssa form are why was it done? Why straighten the blade and add a back edge? If a cavalry weapon, why not simply keep the nimcha and the other known berber sword form with the peculiar tip. Further, where did the zoomorphic pommel as it looks on refined flyssa come from? Its specific form is not seen on other swords, even if the lobed shaped has Ottoman precedents. My point is that it must have had a period of development independent of Ottoman examples. If the Iflissen and other tribes had a lucrative industry producing these swords, why import or keep mimicking yataghan blades? Too many unanswered questions in my mind to convince me fully but if the decorations are Turkic as Ham says, then the example I posted really gives me pause to reconsider. The article by Lacoste-Dujardin is the only published material I could find dedicated to these swords...the literature on them really ought to be updated. These question really should be debated over a bottle of good liquor as Ariel so often suggests would make for some good times. Emanuel

10th April 2007, 05:59 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Emanuel, found this web page....in French....Babel-Fish translation not too good so I've linked to the French page.....some interesting images at the base of the page.... http://lunis1.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=7 Regards David

10th April 2007, 10:11 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Emanuel, sorry there was no new info But when I found it ...you were the guy I thought of.....I don't think it's much of a secret how much you like Flyssa's Please, when you get the chance, send me a copy.....my French is poor....but good enough that I can order a beer in France If you do get to publish your work and would like it in PDF format.... I'm sure I can help....I have the necessary 'professional' PDF software but not the 'expertise'....but I'm sure I could 'muddle through' and do a good job. Regards David

10th April 2007, 10:22 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Hello Where can I get that article about flyssas thx Ward

10th April 2007, 10:23 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Haaha thanks David! I am indeed quite obsessed with this sword, even if I've never held one. Article coming up, and thanks for the offer Emanuel