True Combat Value of Wootz

Gt Obach · 29th October 2006, 11:15 PM

Hi

yes wootz has some odd fissures at times...... they can arise from many reasons... from air bubbles (that why you try to keep the top of the ingot for the back of the blade )... -- maybe some slag inclusion ---- or working the ingot too hot.....-- may also have some uneven distribution of elements..aswell

wootz does align in sheets.... but they are not like patternwelded blades....there is no weld boundaries.... so delamination is an awkward term for this.... and besides it shouldn't keep shearing appart....

as i like the question... was wootz combat worthy.... i did some tests today...

got out my last piece of wrought iron... a piece of flat bar... 3/16 thick... and used one of my wootz blades to test.....

i held the WI ontop of a large 190lbs piece of steel i have sitting in the forge..... i struck it many times.... with a very large wind up... .. and on one chop i actually cut the bar in half...
-- keep in mind that i can hammer things quite hard as i do enough smithing

as i have done far more stressful tests on my blades.....i wasn't worried about doing this to one of my knives....

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture004.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture005.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture008.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture009.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture011.jpg

so far..... the blade did have some damaged..... as you can see some of the etch was removed... (which i can easily redue )..... there is only a little chip that can be felt when running your finger nail on the edge..... but very hard to see........ this happened when i chopped through the wrought iron bar and into the corner of the steel underneath...... but i can redress this edge without worry...

the knife is 1/8 inch thick and inch and half wide......

actually i was shocked that there was a minute bit of damage.... it does tell me that i should maybe temper a little bit higher...... but thats it...... as i've done this test many times before with mild iron and 1/4 plate

the blade is my wootz type crucible steel... as it does come very close to the Indian style watering

now........ does this end the question...... i don't think so.... as this is a modern creation by me...... i can only stand by my word and hammer...

but it does tell you that i'm not scared of any turkish cannon chain..

ariel · 30th October 2006, 06:34 AM

Greg,
This is remarkable! The most honest test I've heard of so far!
Can you repeat it with an equivalent of a European sword blade?
From now on, you can proudly carry a title " Assadollah Wisconsini"
And the Turks better beware: if you get any better, you will start slashing through cannon barrels

Gt Obach · 30th October 2006, 02:42 PM

thanks

i should mention abit about the blade..... the ingot was designed to be 1.5% carbon...... and it was quenched into oil to harden.... ... and tempered twice in an oven to toughen it....
-- also the air temperature yesterday was about 10 celsius

- and i also did several small chops before the two large ones... you can see several v grooves at the top about 1/4 inch deep (sorry for bad photos )
- two large chops.... my accuracy went off on the first one.... and i chopped a piece off the end of the bar which flew into some corner of the shop...??? ... it slipped abit with the tongs i used to hold the Wrought iron... but second shot was on the mark

-- i would not expect an air quenched wootz to do the same..... as its edge will have different characteristics...... ... so becareful if you decide to test a blade on a cannon chain and end up with an impacted edge..

yes.. a euro blade would be a good test aswell.... i'll see what i can come up with for a some what similar steel ....
-- my guess is that it would also hold up quite well !

Greg

Rivkin · 2nd November 2006, 03:54 AM

I have no problem with wootz cutting iron, nor with "simple" steel cutting iron - remember eisenhower, gurda marks, which to some extent precisely mean - cuts through iron. Now here comes my difference from Jim - he would cite you all the literature, but I am lazy, so I want

:
These marks probably appear around XVIIth century, and probably "cut an iron nail" test becomes a standard perfomance test sometime around this date.

Now, after reading about 15 different middle eastern authors and western travelers on middle eastern warfare, I find interesting pattern: western swords, specifically those sold by supposedly vikings to the middle east are highly praised for their quality, something until XIIIth century. Then you start seeing things that suggest that they are of not highest quality (like an edict requiring prosecution of masters who make "frankish"-like swords, but selling them as "damascus", extensive praise for hindu swords, with also extensive reference to their beauty, and, sometimes - directly to their fighting qualities (even though it is often said that such swords are "hard" and good to cut this, and such swords are soft and they are better in cutting that) starts to be applied consistently.

Now, we know quite a few western swords from before XIVth century used in the Middle East (Alexandria arsenal may be not the best example). But I checked numerous accounts of traders to Safavid Persia - not a single one was importing swords.
But then in early XVIIIth century we see that western swords reappear again.

However it can all be explained not only by variations in western vs. eastern swords qualities but also by the dynamics of trade routs and differences between western and eastern use of swords (popularity of slashing etc.).

RSWORD · 2nd November 2006, 01:53 PM

As this interesting discussion winds down, I only have one thing to add.

Jeff D · 2nd November 2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

As this interesting discussion winds down, I only have one thing to add.

Sweet Rick!
I will second that opinion

Chris Evans · 16th November 2006, 01:47 AM

Hi Folks,

I think that we gave this topic a pretty good airing, but by no means wrote the last word on the subject.

Someone brought this to my attention today:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...6bbef23a0311ac

Carbon nanotubes?

Help - We need to get hold of that paper.

Cheers
Chris

2nd November 2006, 03:54 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I have no problem with wootz cutting iron, nor with "simple" steel cutting iron - remember eisenhower, gurda marks, which to some extent precisely mean - cuts through iron. Now here comes my difference from Jim - he would cite you all the literature, but I am lazy, so I want : These marks probably appear around XVIIth century, and probably "cut an iron nail" test becomes a standard perfomance test sometime around this date. Now, after reading about 15 different middle eastern authors and western travelers on middle eastern warfare, I find interesting pattern: western swords, specifically those sold by supposedly vikings to the middle east are highly praised for their quality, something until XIIIth century. Then you start seeing things that suggest that they are of not highest quality (like an edict requiring prosecution of masters who make "frankish"-like swords, but selling them as "damascus", extensive praise for hindu swords, with also extensive reference to their beauty, and, sometimes - directly to their fighting qualities (even though it is often said that such swords are "hard" and good to cut this, and such swords are soft and they are better in cutting that) starts to be applied consistently. Now, we know quite a few western swords from before XIVth century used in the Middle East (Alexandria arsenal may be not the best example). But I checked numerous accounts of traders to Safavid Persia - not a single one was importing swords. But then in early XVIIIth century we see that western swords reappear again. However it can all be explained not only by variations in western vs. eastern swords qualities but also by the dynamics of trade routs and differences between western and eastern use of swords (popularity of slashing etc.). Last edited by Rivkin; 2nd November 2006 at 05:47 AM.

2nd November 2006, 01:53 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	As this interesting discussion winds down, I only have one thing to add. Attached Images

29th October 2006, 11:15 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi yes wootz has some odd fissures at times...... they can arise from many reasons... from air bubbles (that why you try to keep the top of the ingot for the back of the blade )... -- maybe some slag inclusion ---- or working the ingot too hot.....-- may also have some uneven distribution of elements..aswell wootz does align in sheets.... but they are not like patternwelded blades....there is no weld boundaries.... so delamination is an awkward term for this.... and besides it shouldn't keep shearing appart.... as i like the question... was wootz combat worthy.... i did some tests today... got out my last piece of wrought iron... a piece of flat bar... 3/16 thick... and used one of my wootz blades to test..... i held the WI ontop of a large 190lbs piece of steel i have sitting in the forge..... i struck it many times.... with a very large wind up... .. and on one chop i actually cut the bar in half... -- keep in mind that i can hammer things quite hard as i do enough smithing as i have done far more stressful tests on my blades.....i wasn't worried about doing this to one of my knives.... http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture004.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture005.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture008.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture009.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture011.jpg so far..... the blade did have some damaged..... as you can see some of the etch was removed... (which i can easily redue )..... there is only a little chip that can be felt when running your finger nail on the edge..... but very hard to see........ this happened when i chopped through the wrought iron bar and into the corner of the steel underneath...... but i can redress this edge without worry... the knife is 1/8 inch thick and inch and half wide...... actually i was shocked that there was a minute bit of damage.... it does tell me that i should maybe temper a little bit higher...... but thats it...... as i've done this test many times before with mild iron and 1/4 plate the blade is my wootz type crucible steel... as it does come very close to the Indian style watering now........ does this end the question...... i don't think so.... as this is a modern creation by me...... i can only stand by my word and hammer... but it does tell you that i'm not scared of any turkish cannon chain..

30th October 2006, 06:34 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Greg, This is remarkable! The most honest test I've heard of so far! Can you repeat it with an equivalent of a European sword blade? From now on, you can proudly carry a title " Assadollah Wisconsini" And the Turks better beware: if you get any better, you will start slashing through cannon barrels

30th October 2006, 02:42 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	thanks i should mention abit about the blade..... the ingot was designed to be 1.5% carbon...... and it was quenched into oil to harden.... ... and tempered twice in an oven to toughen it.... -- also the air temperature yesterday was about 10 celsius - and i also did several small chops before the two large ones... you can see several v grooves at the top about 1/4 inch deep (sorry for bad photos ) - two large chops.... my accuracy went off on the first one.... and i chopped a piece off the end of the bar which flew into some corner of the shop...??? ... it slipped abit with the tongs i used to hold the Wrought iron... but second shot was on the mark -- i would not expect an air quenched wootz to do the same..... as its edge will have different characteristics...... ... so becareful if you decide to test a blade on a cannon chain and end up with an impacted edge.. yes.. a euro blade would be a good test aswell.... i'll see what i can come up with for a some what similar steel .... -- my guess is that it would also hold up quite well ! Greg

16th November 2006, 01:47 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi Folks, I think that we gave this topic a pretty good airing, but by no means wrote the last word on the subject. Someone brought this to my attention today: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...6bbef23a0311ac Carbon nanotubes? Help - We need to get hold of that paper. Cheers Chris