True Combat Value of Wootz

ariel · 28th October 2006, 03:52 PM

The "viscosity" of the material is one thing. But my question is somewhat different: what about cutting hard steel? Of course, there is the issue of lateral displacement and mechanical engineers among us can easily calculate the proportion of energy going laterally in a wedge.
But there is also an issue of hardness and resiliency: can one reasonably expect a superb wootz sword to cut through a substantial steel gun chain several times without being broken? Even a minute angle of contact would redistribute the energy to shatter the blade. Similarly, while we see old steel mails with cuts ( and we do not know whether these were done by an axe), can we expect a wootz blade slice through multiple, hardened rings to effect a " total body" cut?
My suspicion is that there is much more than the quality of steel in the final effect. Also, wootz might have been much keener than regular steel, but it was of no advantage when dealing with real life objects.

Jeff Pringle · 28th October 2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Also, wootz might have been much keener than regular steel, but it was of no advantage when dealing with real life objects.

Yes, it would just mean you would not have to sharpen it as often - that may have been the most obvious practical effect of wootz' superiority as a steel in it's era.
I've only seen analyses of early medaeval european mail, but those show iron, not steel for the link material.

Gt Obach · 28th October 2006, 05:11 PM

also...... chain was usually made of wrought iron.. ... and this is a soft metal.... i really doubt that steel was used for this at this time.. ( big difference )

with a decent blade... you can cut into mild iron without much problem... i've done it several times... actually..... in the forge i have a cold cut that i use weekly to cut 1/2 mild rounds..... and rarely have to dress the edge...

i realize that not everyone deals with this daily basis... but a properly heat treated piece of steel with good edge geometry should have no problem with mild iron or wrought iron..

on cutting....... theres also a big difference between a chopping cut and a draw cut...... with a draw cut......distal taper has a big effect when pulling the blade through the target... .... aswell as adding to a swords ability to resist bending in a local area

Greg

Gt Obach · 28th October 2006, 06:16 PM

actually... if you do a search you can find plenty on wrought iron chain... .... -wrought iron being iron made by a reduction process in a bloom furnance... ... - a spongy bloom of iron and silicate slag is produced..... this is then folded and forge welded many times... to squeeze out some of the silicate slags.... and evenly spread out the remaining stringers....

the low grade has lots of large stringers... and used for stuff like wagon wheels...
-- if you fold the lower grade many more times.....it becomes more homogenous .... and this is what you would use for chain..... still today... if you want some high grade wrought for knife fittings... you still can get this will large boat or anchor chains.....

-- and it is soft... very little carbon in it.... and not hardenable (unless altered) ..... corrosion resistant, and tough, fiberous, .... very desirable for its easy forge welding

both of my peter wright anvils have a wrought iron body and a steel plate for the face... and its only a 100 years old... .. so wrought was still used for a long time

Greg

Chris Evans · 29th October 2006, 02:06 AM

ariel,

I ask if you would be surprised if a chisel would cut through the said chain/armour. I think that the safe answer is no. Then why not?

Because a chisel's edge has a different geometry, more obtuse, AND because several hammer blows can impart the required energy - One just keeps on hammering until the cut is effected.

Of course, such edge geometry, except on a very specialized sword, would not do at all for an all purpose weapon. And then a single cut is unlikely to have sufficient energy to finish the job.

I have a utility knife that I made from a high speed alloy tools steel blade. Hard as hell and full of carbides (can barely sharpen it) . When a saw, it used to cut steel bars. Once, for an experiment I tried to cut a small, around 1mm dia, nail with it and the edge started to nick. Why? because its low angle edge could not support the load imposed on it. Cuts fine otherwise, but not nails. The steel is the same, but the edge geometry has changed.

GT Obach: A small comment on wrought iron chain

You are spot in your remarks. I just would like to add, that those slag inclusions in wrought iron chain are highly desirable because they act as crack arrestors. This and its superior corrosion resistance is why wrought iron is the preferred metal for ship's anchor chain - Very tough and shock absorbent, yet soft, malleable and easily hammer welded.

Cheers
Chris

ariel · 29th October 2006, 02:25 AM

So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades.

Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each?

Chris Evans · 29th October 2006, 04:15 AM

ariel,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades.

Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each?

Like I said at the outset, I never had the opportunity to examine wootz. All I know about it is what has been published here and there and from learned reports from people like Ann, who is the real expert on this metal here.

Trying to extract a black and white judgement out of metallurgists on a subject like this, is like pulling the proverbial hen's teeth. As opposed to laymen, we are aware of too many variables that can have an effect and as such we are reluctant to commit ourselves. With that said, in my student days, almost half a century ago ( Blast - just gave the game away!), wootz was often mentioned as an early example of a superior steel that was held in extraordinarily high regard in Europe.

Disclaimer: I am writing this on the run, and could easily have left something out, so please don't shoot - OK?

If you truly were comparing apples with apples, then you would take the sword out of the mix and just compare a large number of test specimens, so as to be representative of what could be expected on average, made from wootz and Euro steel from a given time frame (worked/heat treated to the degree that it would be in the sword) and test it for:

a) Hardness (macro and micro);
b) Tensile strength;
c) Impact (Charpy/Izod);
d) Establish the brittle trans temp;
e) Hardenability
f) Chemical analysis:

These would give you the basic properties -Then, you would have to do additional tests to see which of the steels is easier to forge or shape, and which is more unforgiving of its heat treatment.

With all that out of the way, you would then have to relate all this information to the sword's design and intended application, and most importantly to the availability of a skilled workforce.

For example, a purely thrusting sword, such as a smallsword, is only expected to be a decent spring and not snap if flexed. The point does not require any out of the ordinary qualities. If however, the sword is of a lightish cut type, then the plot thickens, depending on what you intended to cut into: Military uniforms, semi naked tribal warriors in Africa or Asian armour.

My own gut feeling tells me that the variability of the steels of the olden days was so great, that on the whole, wootz was probably the better steel to start out with, though I hasten to add that it could be easily ruined during forging. So I'll stick my neck right out and take a chance: In all probability, the very best wootz swords were better than the very best Euro equivalents, though this did not necessarily translate into a military advantage. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and the same applies to armies. The best cavalry sword is little use if you cannot secure large supplies at an affordable price, and if there is a shortage of horses, then you climbed the wrong tree.

To my mind, the whole secret of the unparalleled success of Europe in war, is attributable to a general disregard for excellence and instead a more pragmatic concern for the lowest common denominator, which was better than of her rivals.

I hope that I have not muddied the waters too much.

Cheers
Chris

28th October 2006, 03:52 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The "viscosity" of the material is one thing. But my question is somewhat different: what about cutting hard steel? Of course, there is the issue of lateral displacement and mechanical engineers among us can easily calculate the proportion of energy going laterally in a wedge. But there is also an issue of hardness and resiliency: can one reasonably expect a superb wootz sword to cut through a substantial steel gun chain several times without being broken? Even a minute angle of contact would redistribute the energy to shatter the blade. Similarly, while we see old steel mails with cuts ( and we do not know whether these were done by an axe), can we expect a wootz blade slice through multiple, hardened rings to effect a " total body" cut? My suspicion is that there is much more than the quality of steel in the final effect. Also, wootz might have been much keener than regular steel, but it was of no advantage when dealing with real life objects.

28th October 2006, 05:11 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	also...... chain was usually made of wrought iron.. ... and this is a soft metal.... i really doubt that steel was used for this at this time.. ( big difference ) with a decent blade... you can cut into mild iron without much problem... i've done it several times... actually..... in the forge i have a cold cut that i use weekly to cut 1/2 mild rounds..... and rarely have to dress the edge... i realize that not everyone deals with this daily basis... but a properly heat treated piece of steel with good edge geometry should have no problem with mild iron or wrought iron.. on cutting....... theres also a big difference between a chopping cut and a draw cut...... with a draw cut......distal taper has a big effect when pulling the blade through the target... .... aswell as adding to a swords ability to resist bending in a local area Greg

28th October 2006, 06:16 PM	#4
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	actually... if you do a search you can find plenty on wrought iron chain... .... -wrought iron being iron made by a reduction process in a bloom furnance... ... - a spongy bloom of iron and silicate slag is produced..... this is then folded and forge welded many times... to squeeze out some of the silicate slags.... and evenly spread out the remaining stringers.... the low grade has lots of large stringers... and used for stuff like wagon wheels... -- if you fold the lower grade many more times.....it becomes more homogenous .... and this is what you would use for chain..... still today... if you want some high grade wrought for knife fittings... you still can get this will large boat or anchor chains..... -- and it is soft... very little carbon in it.... and not hardenable (unless altered) ..... corrosion resistant, and tough, fiberous, .... very desirable for its easy forge welding both of my peter wright anvils have a wrought iron body and a steel plate for the face... and its only a 100 years old... .. so wrought was still used for a long time Greg

29th October 2006, 02:06 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	ariel, I ask if you would be surprised if a chisel would cut through the said chain/armour. I think that the safe answer is no. Then why not? Because a chisel's edge has a different geometry, more obtuse, AND because several hammer blows can impart the required energy - One just keeps on hammering until the cut is effected. Of course, such edge geometry, except on a very specialized sword, would not do at all for an all purpose weapon. And then a single cut is unlikely to have sufficient energy to finish the job. I have a utility knife that I made from a high speed alloy tools steel blade. Hard as hell and full of carbides (can barely sharpen it) . When a saw, it used to cut steel bars. Once, for an experiment I tried to cut a small, around 1mm dia, nail with it and the edge started to nick. Why? because its low angle edge could not support the load imposed on it. Cuts fine otherwise, but not nails. The steel is the same, but the edge geometry has changed. GT Obach: A small comment on wrought iron chain You are spot in your remarks. I just would like to add, that those slag inclusions in wrought iron chain are highly desirable because they act as crack arrestors. This and its superior corrosion resistance is why wrought iron is the preferred metal for ship's anchor chain - Very tough and shock absorbent, yet soft, malleable and easily hammer welded. Cheers Chris

29th October 2006, 02:25 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades. Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each?