True Combat Value of Wootz

tsubame1 · 27th October 2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

I have a reference, somewhere in my library, in which an experienced old samurai criticized a display of helmet splitting, by a colleague, arguing that he cheated buy using a naginata blade. Perhaps tsubame1 (carlo) can help us out here.

Naginata is for sure a thicker blade then a Katana. Anyway,
Kabutowari (helmet-cutting), even if much less known then other forms of
fixing Wazamono rating (ability to cut) has been performed in old times and
a fist of times in modern days too, with swords. The most known is the one advertised here : http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html . This link provides further information about past Kabutowari tests as well.

Nonetheless this specific cutting test isn't IMHO enough historically accurate.
The blade IS NOT a NihonTo. Is a blade made by Paul Champagne, that's for sure an incredibly good blade, but has no value for a comparative test with NihonTo. More belivable is the previous test (which likely Obata Toshihiro has been inspired by) made by Terutaka Kawabata Sensei.

The following picture (not reported in that site) refers to the experiment made by (scroll down to Post-Meiji attempts in the link provided) Terutaka Kawabata Sensei with Yoshihara Yoshindo *unmounted* blade. This detail is of great importance and this is the reason I scanned the picture (Obata test was made the same way, without a proper made handle).
These tests are often referred to as unreliable due to the fact the neck of
the helmet's owner would absorbe a lot of energy (resulting, IMHO, in the breaking of the said neck BTW...), an opponent isn't a fixed target but a mobile one (of no pertinence, IMHO) and that the helmet was old and possibly already damaged. Even if the first statement can have some validity, as per the 3rd one the helmet was accurately choosen and of good quality (sic...) and the blade made the traditional way. The lack of mounting can only add to the ability of the cutters and, in a lesser way, to the quality of the blades. Being the helmet, for it's shape and paramount importance, likely the most resistant part of the armor, it can be, IMHO, safely assumed that *some* armors, might be the lesser or lighter ones, could be cut *in some places* (sleeves and other) by a sword (not necessarily a japanese one and no matter about the steel used).

As per swords durability : Oakeshott used to say "a sword has 3 battles or
3 hundred years in it, whichever come first".

Quiet exaggerate IMHO (at least for NihonTo that have 9 centuries battle-proof living examples...), but gives a good idea about a general rule : nothing is forever in this world and the swords that have survived till today either :

a) have seen few to no usage

b) have been used, even heavily, but were of very high quality

c) had an incredible amount of luck

d) an interesting mix of the previous three statements .

ariel · 27th October 2006, 04:54 PM

So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?

tsubame1 · 27th October 2006, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?

Does he provides the geometry of the blade involved ?

Rivkin · 27th October 2006, 06:54 PM

Muhammad Mansur Mubarak-Shah in Qitab Adab al-Harb... is quite clear that "gorz (mace), chubak (similar to mace, i think in english it is called warhammer ?), hudzhikan (spear), bulkoteg (another type of mace) - weapon of those confident in their strength and is used against those dressed in ...(names of different types of armor) armor". He gives a few examples of the use of these weapons, telling that tabar can also be used against armored cavalrymen, but never does he speak about swords being used against them. It is obvious that sword can be used against armour; we see numerous references to someone cutting mail so badly it looked like that on David (by memory).
However, from manual it seems to be clear (to me) that sword in principle was not a primeral weapon against heavily armored soldiers: spear, mace-like weapons, even arrows were used against mail.
Now, to Shah Ismail - I would believe in him killing a man, but head to toe, then guns, then another two men - that sounds more like hashish talking. What's the original source for this, I suppose legend ?

tsubame1 · 27th October 2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I would believe in him killing a man, but head to toe, then guns, then another two men - that sounds more like hashish talking. What's the original source for this, I suppose legend ?

This is obviously a legend. All cultures have similar accounts about the
swords they relied on.
Mace is likely the better weapon against heavy and even not so heavy armor
as chainmail proved to be very resistant even against arrows.
I think that the sword is in some way tied to mankind subconscious.
Even if the mace was so highly valued to begun the materialization of the King power in the sceptre, still is the sword that is used to give power to others and that is portraied in the tombs.
There were a variety of armors on the battlefield and legends always has a little truth in them, might be much lesser and more belivable events took place and were later made gigantic. Old advertising ?

Lee · 27th October 2006, 09:43 PM

The old Norse had their sagas, verbally handed down, as did most traditional cultures. Our technology gives us CGI enhanced motion pictures and television. In my opinion, the heroic, exaggerated content is the same as always, only the technology has been updated. And I am sure that to have heard one of these tales very well told while sitting around the fire on a cold night then was as much a thrill for my ancestors as that excitement which I experience occasionally at the theater.

Chris Evans · 28th October 2006, 11:27 AM

Folks,

When attempting to assess extraordinary cutting feats with swords, disregarding the attributes of the steel for a moment, we also have to consider the energy input required to make the cut.

To put it into simple terms: When felling green timber, the quality of the steel from which the axe is made is not all that critical, yet nobody would expect to cut through a smallish tree in a single stroke. Why not? Because the energy required exceeds that which even the most powerful swing can generate - And even if such a mighty lumberman did exists, the handle of the axe would fail.

Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. Just what a considerable drain on energy this can be, is best illustrated when cutting with a sword into a large block of moist potters clay. The hardness/toughness/sharpness of the blade in this instance is comparatively insignificant, yet the blade will come to a halt after only a few inches of penetration. The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters.

I imagine that cleaving through a human body clad in armour, even light armour, will require more energy than what can be delivered by even the mightiest sword arm - Never mind the hilt standing up to the task.

There is a often quoted story from the Napoleonic wars in which a Brit cavalryman cleaved a Frenchmans head, cutting right through his helmet, which I believe was made from brass. But despite that he was using the famous 1796 pattern sabre, and steel quality was not an issue, the cut only reached the victim's jaws, or thereabouts.

I think that extraordinary sword feats from the distant past parallel those of the old archers. Feats that when subjected to mechanical analysis, do not stack up all that well.

Cheers
Chris

27th October 2006, 04:54 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?

27th October 2006, 06:54 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Muhammad Mansur Mubarak-Shah in Qitab Adab al-Harb... is quite clear that "gorz (mace), chubak (similar to mace, i think in english it is called warhammer ?), hudzhikan (spear), bulkoteg (another type of mace) - weapon of those confident in their strength and is used against those dressed in ...(names of different types of armor) armor". He gives a few examples of the use of these weapons, telling that tabar can also be used against armored cavalrymen, but never does he speak about swords being used against them. It is obvious that sword can be used against armour; we see numerous references to someone cutting mail so badly it looked like that on David (by memory). However, from manual it seems to be clear (to me) that sword in principle was not a primeral weapon against heavily armored soldiers: spear, mace-like weapons, even arrows were used against mail. Now, to Shah Ismail - I would believe in him killing a man, but head to toe, then guns, then another two men - that sounds more like hashish talking. What's the original source for this, I suppose legend ?

27th October 2006, 09:43 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 980	The old Norse had their sagas, verbally handed down, as did most traditional cultures. Our technology gives us CGI enhanced motion pictures and television. In my opinion, the heroic, exaggerated content is the same as always, only the technology has been updated. And I am sure that to have heard one of these tales very well told while sitting around the fire on a cold night then was as much a thrill for my ancestors as that excitement which I experience occasionally at the theater.

28th October 2006, 11:27 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Folks, When attempting to assess extraordinary cutting feats with swords, disregarding the attributes of the steel for a moment, we also have to consider the energy input required to make the cut. To put it into simple terms: When felling green timber, the quality of the steel from which the axe is made is not all that critical, yet nobody would expect to cut through a smallish tree in a single stroke. Why not? Because the energy required exceeds that which even the most powerful swing can generate - And even if such a mighty lumberman did exists, the handle of the axe would fail. Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. Just what a considerable drain on energy this can be, is best illustrated when cutting with a sword into a large block of moist potters clay. The hardness/toughness/sharpness of the blade in this instance is comparatively insignificant, yet the blade will come to a halt after only a few inches of penetration. The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters. I imagine that cleaving through a human body clad in armour, even light armour, will require more energy than what can be delivered by even the mightiest sword arm - Never mind the hilt standing up to the task. There is a often quoted story from the Napoleonic wars in which a Brit cavalryman cleaved a Frenchmans head, cutting right through his helmet, which I believe was made from brass. But despite that he was using the famous 1796 pattern sabre, and steel quality was not an issue, the cut only reached the victim's jaws, or thereabouts. I think that extraordinary sword feats from the distant past parallel those of the old archers. Feats that when subjected to mechanical analysis, do not stack up all that well. Cheers Chris