My First Kuba Sword......comments please

Mapico1 · 17th October 2006, 10:14 AM

Hi,
I don't want to be the one with the bad news all the time but I feel I have to react here.....
The "ikula"knives don't have a scabbard!!
This scabbard is from a tourist Lega knife!!
I saw this one on ebay to but it's not so good quality for a ikula.
There're thousands of those knives,they're the most common Kuba knives.
Sorry but very often I read here on the forum:great,super,congratz,etc.....for things of very low quality or even fake!! Most of the time I don't react to keep the dream alive but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do on the long run....

katana · 17th October 2006, 10:49 AM

Thanks for your input Mapico, the seller states that the 'scabbard' has age, I'll wait and see if this is the case. As I mentioned before..I was not certain about the scabbard.
But, if you are correct, why do these swords not have some form of scabbard? That seems strange....after all who wants to walk around branishing your sword all the time.....it would be inconvenient. Plus the fact a scabbard offers protection to the sword when not in use.

Congoblades · 17th October 2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Hi,
I don't want to be the one with the bad news all the time but I feel I have to react here.....
The "ikula"knives don't have a scabbard!!
This scabbard is from a tourist Lega knife!!
I saw this one on ebay to but it's not so good quality for a ikula.
There're thousands of those knives,they're the most common Kuba knives.
Sorry but very often I read here on the forum:great,super,congratz,etc.....for things of very low quality or even fake!! Most of the time I don't react to keep the dream alive but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do on the long run....

Hi Danny, It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it

I appreciate these comment highly, it is not pleasant for the owner but usefull for the others, personal I prefer to know if I have a bad, cheap or touristic example of some item rather than to dream of things I don't have but don't know YET!!
Guy

Mapico1 · 17th October 2006, 12:36 PM

Hi,
almost all the Kuba knives are to show the rank of the owner.
There're about 20 different shapes,starting with the one you bought,then the same in red copper,then one with a 1,5 cm flat tip,then ikula with pewter and brass inlay in the handle,etc...........the long sword "ilondo"is used for fighting and has a raffia scabbard with belt to wear.
The knives,when not in use are kept in the wall of their homes,which are made of raffia strips......
The old knives are mostly sharp,the later ones not.
Also the later ones are sometimes cut out of a plate and not forged.
Yours is forged!!no worries.

Rick · 17th October 2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Hi,
I don't want to be the one with the bad news all the time but I feel I have to react here.....
The "ikula"knives don't have a scabbard!!
This scabbard is from a tourist Lega knife!!
I saw this one on ebay to but it's not so good quality for a ikula.
There're thousands of those knives,they're the most common Kuba knives.
Sorry but very often I read here on the forum:great,super,congratz,etc.....for things of very low quality or even fake!! Most of the time I don't react to keep the dream alive but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do on the long run....

Danny, all opinions are welcomed; the way we all learn is from the expertise of others . Please have no qualms about identifying pieces that are not old or have been made to deceive the innocent .

I believe sometime back we had a discussion on just what is 'fake' as it can be a loaded word in discussion .

Again, please share your expertise with us all; no good that will come from keeping silent on such issues; just be gentle with us .

VANDOO · 17th October 2006, 04:44 PM

YOU HAVE SOLVED ONE OF MY MYSTERIES

I ALWAYS WONDERED WHERE ALL THE SCABBARDS WERE ON THIS TYPE KNIFE. THE PICTURE SHOWING THE KNIVES STORED ON THE HUT WALL AND YOUR EXPLANATION OF THE KNIVES MAIN PURPOSE CLEAR UP SEVERAL QUESTIONS. WERE THESE DAGGERS EVER CARRIED TO WAR AS A BACKUP WEAPON OR LEFT AT HOME ON SUCH OCCASIONS AND THE LARGER SWORDS AND SPEARS CARRIED? I ASSUME THE 20 DIFFERENT FORMS ALL HAVE A SPECIAL MEANING OR PURPOSE?

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND WEAPONS WITH MIS MATCHED SCABBARDS AND I ALWAYS WONDER WHEN AND HOW IT OCCURED. I RECENTLY SAW TWO FRENCH SWORDS IN ETHIOPIAN SCABARDS AND HAVE A FEW ITEMS IN MY COLLECTION I WONDER ABOUT.
YOU GOT A COMPLETE DAGGER AND AN EXTRA SCABBARD TO BOOT NOW YOU NEED TO FIND THE PROPER DAGGER FOR THE SCABBARD

IT NEVER SEEMS TO END AS FAR AS COLLECTING ,BUT WHO WANTS IT TO

katana · 17th October 2006, 10:17 PM

As Rick and others have pointed out...it is important there are conflicting views.
Dis-information breeds more dis-information and benefits no-one.

I am hoping that the 'pouch' is of some age, that although it is not the scabbard ...that it is a tribal artefact..... and not a 'tourist sheath' or handbag

My 'gut instinct' was right.... but there was that element of doubt (that I could be wrong) so I bid. As a collector we must occasionally take risks.. otherwise you could miss out on something incredibly rare.......Ah...the 'ups and downs' of collecting........nurse pass me my vallium

katana · 19th October 2006, 01:45 PM

It arrived today.......got a little excited......the handle is heavily encrusted in grime.......looked all wood with faint intricate carving.....gently scraped the carved areas ....to reveil.....silvery metal. The 'wear' patina suggests age....so the 19c stated by the seller IS a possibility.
As to the pouch, it is made from old thick leather which is age hardened, is well constructed and also suggests age, say mid 20c. The pouch has 'age' harden around the knife's blade shape....which further suggests that this married couple have been together for some time. I am not saying that this is a sheath for the sword.....but IMHO this has been used to store it for sometime.

The metal 'inlays' are quite fine and still have alot of grime in them...what can I use (solvent ?) to thoughly remove the dirt without ruining the overall patina? The pommel is overlaid with a metal 'cap' which is 'patterned' but covered in a dark brown/black layer ....should this be cleaned off? Pictures will not show (very well) the metal work, so I want to clean it further before posting new pics.

The blade is fairly sharp, and although it has not been sharpened ...for a very long time...I could cut my finger if I run it along the blade (cuts paper fairly cleanly) ...the blade has a formed edge.

I am also right in suggesting that this is a higher status example of a ikula.......

katana · 19th October 2006, 02:22 PM

Searched the Anthropology collections website, found this image .....acquired in 1907. The hilt is very similar to mine....

katana · 21st October 2006, 07:39 PM

Poor pictures, as not fully clean, but they give you an idea....

17th October 2006, 10:14 AM	#1
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	kuba Hi, I don't want to be the one with the bad news all the time but I feel I have to react here..... The "ikula"knives don't have a scabbard!! This scabbard is from a tourist Lega knife!! I saw this one on ebay to but it's not so good quality for a ikula. There're thousands of those knives,they're the most common Kuba knives. Sorry but very often I read here on the forum:great,super,congratz,etc.....for things of very low quality or even fake!! Most of the time I don't react to keep the dream alive but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do on the long run....

17th October 2006, 12:36 PM	#4
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	kuba Hi, almost all the Kuba knives are to show the rank of the owner. There're about 20 different shapes,starting with the one you bought,then the same in red copper,then one with a 1,5 cm flat tip,then ikula with pewter and brass inlay in the handle,etc...........the long sword "ilondo"is used for fighting and has a raffia scabbard with belt to wear. The knives,when not in use are kept in the wall of their homes,which are made of raffia strips...... The old knives are mostly sharp,the later ones not. Also the later ones are sometimes cut out of a plate and not forged. Yours is forged!!no worries. Attached Images

19th October 2006, 02:22 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Searched the Anthropology collections website, found this image .....acquired in 1907. The hilt is very similar to mine.... Attached Images

21st October 2006, 07:39 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Poor pictures, as not fully clean, but they give you an idea.... Attached Images

17th October 2006, 10:49 AM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks for your input Mapico, the seller states that the 'scabbard' has age, I'll wait and see if this is the case. As I mentioned before..I was not certain about the scabbard. But, if you are correct, why do these swords not have some form of scabbard? That seems strange....after all who wants to walk around branishing your sword all the time.....it would be inconvenient. Plus the fact a scabbard offers protection to the sword when not in use.

17th October 2006, 04:44 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU HAVE SOLVED ONE OF MY MYSTERIES I ALWAYS WONDERED WHERE ALL THE SCABBARDS WERE ON THIS TYPE KNIFE. THE PICTURE SHOWING THE KNIVES STORED ON THE HUT WALL AND YOUR EXPLANATION OF THE KNIVES MAIN PURPOSE CLEAR UP SEVERAL QUESTIONS. WERE THESE DAGGERS EVER CARRIED TO WAR AS A BACKUP WEAPON OR LEFT AT HOME ON SUCH OCCASIONS AND THE LARGER SWORDS AND SPEARS CARRIED? I ASSUME THE 20 DIFFERENT FORMS ALL HAVE A SPECIAL MEANING OR PURPOSE? IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND WEAPONS WITH MIS MATCHED SCABBARDS AND I ALWAYS WONDER WHEN AND HOW IT OCCURED. I RECENTLY SAW TWO FRENCH SWORDS IN ETHIOPIAN SCABARDS AND HAVE A FEW ITEMS IN MY COLLECTION I WONDER ABOUT. YOU GOT A COMPLETE DAGGER AND AN EXTRA SCABBARD TO BOOT NOW YOU NEED TO FIND THE PROPER DAGGER FOR THE SCABBARD IT NEVER SEEMS TO END AS FAR AS COLLECTING ,BUT WHO WANTS IT TO

17th October 2006, 10:17 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	As Rick and others have pointed out...it is important there are conflicting views. Dis-information breeds more dis-information and benefits no-one. I am hoping that the 'pouch' is of some age, that although it is not the scabbard ...that it is a tribal artefact..... and not a 'tourist sheath' or handbag My 'gut instinct' was right.... but there was that element of doubt (that I could be wrong) so I bid. As a collector we must occasionally take risks.. otherwise you could miss out on something incredibly rare.......Ah...the 'ups and downs' of collecting........nurse pass me my vallium

19th October 2006, 01:45 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	It arrived today.......got a little excited......the handle is heavily encrusted in grime.......looked all wood with faint intricate carving.....gently scraped the carved areas ....to reveil.....silvery metal. The 'wear' patina suggests age....so the 19c stated by the seller IS a possibility. As to the pouch, it is made from old thick leather which is age hardened, is well constructed and also suggests age, say mid 20c. The pouch has 'age' harden around the knife's blade shape....which further suggests that this married couple have been together for some time. I am not saying that this is a sheath for the sword.....but IMHO this has been used to store it for sometime. The metal 'inlays' are quite fine and still have alot of grime in them...what can I use (solvent ?) to thoughly remove the dirt without ruining the overall patina? The pommel is overlaid with a metal 'cap' which is 'patterned' but covered in a dark brown/black layer ....should this be cleaned off? Pictures will not show (very well) the metal work, so I want to clean it further before posting new pics. The blade is fairly sharp, and although it has not been sharpened ...for a very long time...I could cut my finger if I run it along the blade (cuts paper fairly cleanly) ...the blade has a formed edge. I am also right in suggesting that this is a higher status example of a ikula.......