Questions about Mr. Khorasani's lecture

[B.I]

in my opinion, i dont think early persian casting surpassed that of 16thC india, which incorprated techniques still used today (in india or course). not saying indian work was better, but was easily the equal in techinique and quality, and many centuries later.
i have seen the lecture and i feel that he was promoting all things persia, using slight exaggeration. nothing wrong with this. i have a dealer friend that i share a regular joke with. each piece he shows me is ''the best in the world''. he doesnt actually mean this, he just means his piece is pretty bloody good.
so, i feel the lecturer meant that persian casting was of a high quality, which he expressed by saying it was the ''best in the world''.
just a salesmans pitch. maybe he is on commission from the iranian tourist board? (joke!!! please dont anyone get offended!!)

[Doug M]

Originally Posted by B.I

in my opinion, i dont think early persian casting surpassed that of 16thC india, which incorprated techniques still used today (in india or course). not saying indian work was better, but was easily the equal in techinique and quality, and many centuries later.

One should also look at this quote: "This is only my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that in our sophisticated modern age,there were ancient bronze casting techniques that cant be replicated now.Not only have we made massive technological advances in casting but many modern techniques are directly descended from ancient ones.Sometimes the biggest difference can be the modern materials used now alloys,casting medium, ect while the process itself is basically the same." Gentlemen, how many book on ancient Persian castng have you read? How else do you support your opinions?

i have seen the lecture and i feel that he was promoting all things persia, using slight exaggeration. nothing wrong with this.

That is quite a feeling ya got there. Perhaps you should emphasize the logicof this claim and prove it. However, the claim made falls to the wayside when the claim is given a moment's thought.

i have a dealer friend that i share a regular joke with. each piece he shows me is ''the best in the world''. he doesnt actually mean this, he just means his piece is pretty bloody good.
so, i feel the lecturer meant that persian casting was of a high quality, which he expressed by saying it was the ''best in the world''.

Sorry, but your "dealer friend" situation is unrelated.

When you listen to the lecture, you can note that "the lecturer" specifically discusses how difficult it was to cast a grip via the lost wax
process. It should be noted that the people who cast these weapons did so without the use of modern technology, and this is yet to be replicated. Thus, if one wants to find out how MIT students are faring in this challenge to cast such a weapon successfully, one should inquire about it. And one should not be surprised if success has not been reached.

just a salesmans pitch. maybe he is on commission from the iranian tourist board? (joke!!! please dont anyone get offended!!)

If you truly did not mean to offend, why post it if you knew it could offend?

Finally, it is curious that Dr. Feuerbach's review has been ignored. Indeed, the statements here seem to be less about the book and more about the author. Why this is persisting is very strange. Gentlemen, focus on the book, not the author.

Doug M

[Rivkin]

First here we discuss the lecture, not the book. While I disagree with Ariel's analysis of the gladius, I think he initially raised a valid point, which we are discussing here. Concerning students at MIT - I doubt they do bronze casting in their spare time, however I found no reference in books on middle eastern bronze (starting with Gorelik) that persian one was something better than caucasian for example. May be it is, may be it is not, I am no specialist, I don't know.

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach - her review is her review and her beliefs are her beliefs. We have a separate thread to discuss it.

[Ian]

This thread is in danger of deteriorating into issues of personalities. Please do not force me to lock it and hand out suspensions to members making inappropriate comments. If pushed to that point, some people could be taking a month's vacation or longer from posting here!

Please keep all discussions civil and focussed on the subject not the personalities. If not, action will be swift and decisive without further comment or explanation from the Staff.

Let's get back to the subject of this discussion if anyone has something further to say. If not, then I suggest we let this subject rest.

Ian.

[B.I]

i am slightly confused as to where this is all going. ian has noted something we were all fully aware of, that any discussion about this author could lead to a potential threadlock and so we must tread carefully. i do realise that with the author being a moderator of another forum, we risk a division which we all know must be avoided.
the last thread was rightly locked, because there were opinions about the author and not the book. this thread was meant to be about a lecture on iranian arms.
i am not sure why doug took my post the wrong way.
i have always considered this forum to be relatively laid back. a place to discuss things and occasionally have a joke, as long as the rules are adhered to and no offence was meant. and amidst this light hearted banter, we occasionally learn something.
i can only see that doug is gunning on behalf on manouchers honour, which is admirable, but sometimes misplaced.
i have not mentioned the book in this post. why would i, as i have only spent an hour or so with it. i do have opinions on it, but would not dream or mentioning it here until i have done the book justice and read it.
surely then my opinions would be valid???
but, i am not sure they would.
if i spent $150 (plus postage) on a book and devoted a good few weeks of my life reading it and soaking it what it has to offer, would i be allowed to offer an opinion on it?
or is any potential critisism not accepted. surely then, no one must ever say a bad word against any book or any author, for fear of offending someone.
i dont know anything about persian bronze casters, but then again, that isnt the point i was making. in a way, i was actually defending manoucher's claim.
i do know persian bronzes as art objects, it that i have seen and handled many fantastic examples. my point was that the finished piece was no better than the best of other cultures. this is an asthetic point of view, and not an academic one. but, i am a collector and this is the only point of view i have! so, my opinion shouldnt need to be supported by reading any book.
if this was a thesis, yes, but a friendly banter forum, no.
my 'dealer friend' story was purely to show how an exaggeration can be used in a friendly way, to strengthen a description. i was actually saying that all manoucher probably meant was that he thought that persian bronzes were pretty damn good. i saw nothing wrong in his way of saying it, and i am sure he didnt mean for anyone to try and prove him wrong.
if any post is pulled apart aggressively, sentence by sentence, then many unintended things can be supposed. i would suggest reading a post as a whole, to see what the writer meant, and not steer it in a different direction. if you are looking for fault, then it will be easy to find, even if it isnt there.
i am very sorry that doug took my post the wrong way. however, i am not sorry about anything i wrote as i just re-read it and cant see how i could have given offence. i wrote my post, and i know what i meant, and i meant nothing bad.
i personally feel that with this book and the sensitive situation that has aroused over it we should do two things. first, we should only express a valid opinion on the published work, once read, and not on the author. secondly, we should listen to these valid opinions and not get so defensive. opinions, if backed up with time spent on the article, are valid.
surely a forum is a place for discussion of such things. robert elgood throws the occasional wild statement out there, to provoke a debate. this debate is healthy, as it allows many others to join in on a subject and so further our understanding and knowledge.
in my opinion, manoucher did not write a ''definative book'' on iranian arms. he wrote a book on iranian arms, which set the table for others to discuss a subject he is undoubtably passionate about. for this, he and all other authors should be admired. if each book is definative, then i can happily take down some book shelves.
if there are mistakes in there, then they sould be discussed, but in a friendly way.
i read ann's review and thorougly enjoyed it. however, it is an opinion of a scholar/academic. there is another side to this coin with an opinion which is just as valid. in fact, only when the two come together, will we really be getting somewhere.
its a sad fact, that this thread will ultimately be locked. i personally take my library very seriously and thoroughly enjoy every book in it, both good and bad.
where can we discuss these things if not on a forum??

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by B.I

I was actually saying that all manoucher probably meant was that he thought that persian bronzes were pretty damn good. i saw nothing wrong in his way of saying it, and i am sure he didnt mean for anyone to try and prove him wrong.

...that's the most plausible and proactive way to intend it.

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen,

First of all I have no claim to be a "serious student of weapons" or an "expert". I am just a savage who likes to discuss pointy thingies.
Second, if Manoucher indeed used the word "prohibited" instead of "taught" it is his mistake or misinterpretation of other's writing. Nothing tragic or horrible about it, and no connection to the book that I can detect.
Third, I strongly suspect that if I start calling all of MIT students asking how their bronze casting is coming, I can be slightly misunderstood. Again, I am not an expert or serious student so I can just assume that swiss pocket knives are a little bit more popular novadays than akenakes.
Fourth, Concerning Dr. Feuerbach: I do not want to spent my time trying to prove that Michelangelo or Shota did not copy their work from persians who were in the mean time "preserving" the knowledge of the classical world, those who are intrested in the subject can just read relevant literature and make up their own opinion.There are a lot of theories our there I don't like, but should we convert Vikingsword into arguing over which one is right ? I think not - you have your crowd at swordforum, Dr. Feuerbach is entitled to her opinion, same as Dr.Farroukh is entitled to his fight against turkish history and Bozkurtlar are entitled to whatever they think.
The devision has not started yesterday; it involves nations, politics and lots of blood. I have made clear my position on the question and I propose further discussion to be moved into private mail - it is a question which is much greater than swords or history, it is how we understand swords and history.

[Doug M]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

First here we discuss the lecture, not the book.

Since the lecture and the person giving the lecture are closely related, discussion has turned from the information to the speaker and other people's feelings and opinions on the matter. That becomes problematic, particularly since the "conversation" easily can turn to ideology rather than information in the lecture alone.

While I disagree with Ariel's analysis of the gladius, I think he initially raised a valid point, which we are discussing here.

Of course, the discussion of whether a weapon can be used with the point of the edge is valid. One could argue that the shamshir was not used for thrusting, could have been used for thrusting, probably was used for thrusting, and was used for thrusting. The same goes for the niuweidao. But to make the case that a weapon was certainly used, equally, for both would be a mistake. Sure, a gladius could be used for cutting, but it appears that it has its emphasis on the thrust. The point that thrusting was emphasized in coordination with other men makes sense. And there is historical evidence to support that notion. Flippant dismissal of such evidence is not becoming of academic advancement in the field nor becoming of a serious student of weapon study.

Concerning students at MIT - I doubt they do bronze casting in their spare time,

Don't you think it is better to determine that with more certainty (by searching for a more direct answer) than just assuming an answer? How do you know none of the people at the lecture or who have watched teh lecture did not take that offer up?

however I found no reference in books on middle eastern bronze (starting with Gorelik) that persian one was something better than caucasian for example. May be it is, may be it is not, I am no specialist, I don't know.

Is this even a provable point? Maybe this should not be the focus.

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach - her review is her review and her beliefs are her beliefs. We have a separate thread to discuss it.

1) Her perspective is one of a learned position on the matter, and it should be taken more seriously than just as "her beliefs are her beliefs." Further inquuiry into why she says what she says could be very beneficial.
2) Seeing that she has replied to the thread, actually discussing issues there would be an excellent opportunity to talk with an expert. Yet emphasis is on discussing the author, not the work.

Anyway, this should not be about personal attacks (which my responses are not meant to be). My point is that if the information in the lecture is the focus, shouldn't that be the focus? That is all these posts have aimed at. That is it.

[Rick]

"Flippant dismissal of such evidence is not becoming of academic advancement in the field nor becoming of a serious student of weapon study."

Doug, I think that this is a rather loaded comment ; I don't believe anyone here has "flippantly dismissed" the stabbing function of the Gladius.