Keris for comment

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 06:28 PM

Against my better judgement I am visiting this rather incestuous site to dispel a few misconceptions.
Since posting the auction of a keris on ebay I have been called variously "gullable"(sic. - I guess that should be "gullible")); "an idiot" and a "con man"; and I feel it's time to respond.
Admittedly the images on my site were not brilliant; but they were certainly a lot clearer than the ones posted on this blog. However, based solely on the photograph I have received "expert" advice that the pamor pattern on the blade has been (1) painted on , or (2) etched on.
I am no metallurgist; but it seems to me that it would be extremely hard to fake layers of different metals that go intrinsically right through the blade, and whose borders can be clearly seen where the different layers meet the edge.
I don't profess to knowledge of kerises, but being somewhat familiar with the provenance of this item I will gladly buy all the ones of this quality that site members assure me can be purchased for $10.00. The workmanship in setting the different coloured sections of jahti wood is of a very high standard, and the carving of figures which I take to be Hindu is excellent.
This kris was brought back to Australia by a United Nations policeman over 40 years ago. (Other items he brought back include a carved bone blowpipe from Borneo which I feel sure your members will tell me is plastic, and a Dayak hair comb which no doubt was bought in Wal-Mart. There are also two statues which just cannot be found today; but again I'm sure I'll be informed that these were run up in a backstreet in Denpasar.)
I have shown this item to a native Indonesian whose brother is a respected dukun, and who confirms the authenticity. His guess is that the keris was confiscated, as no owner would part with a family one for mere money.
I have since sold the keris to a local collector who is extremely happy with his purchase.
So in the one corner we have an Indonesian who has a deep knowledge of the keris and who has inspected the physical item; and in the other we have someone whose credentials are unknown to me but who tells me on the basis of a photo that the intrinsic pattern has been painted on a single sheet of metal, and I have to decide which one to believe - gee whiz, that's a tough decision!!
I note in passing that someone has posted photos on this thread which have nothing to do with the item under discussion.
(Incidentally, the 'peanut' to whom I refer is someone who kept popping up on my ebay auctions like a bad cold).
In closing, I agree that Balinese copies are extant - of course they are; but the point that all you learned gentlemen seem to miss is "What are they copies of?" There have to be some originals that are themselves copied, and that is the case here.

Ian · 3rd October 2006, 08:11 PM

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

Rick · 3rd October 2006, 08:41 PM

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

Rick · 4th October 2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ignorant_aussie

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

All meaningful comment that could be made has been made.

If you choose to ignore the accumulated decades of knowledge in this forum then that is your affair Sir.

We bid you farewell .

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

My congratulations for having the editorial honesty to publish my thread 'in toto'.

3rd October 2006, 06:28 PM	#1
ignorant_aussie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	The True Picture Against my better judgement I am visiting this rather incestuous site to dispel a few misconceptions. Since posting the auction of a keris on ebay I have been called variously "gullable"(sic. - I guess that should be "gullible")); "an idiot" and a "con man"; and I feel it's time to respond. Admittedly the images on my site were not brilliant; but they were certainly a lot clearer than the ones posted on this blog. However, based solely on the photograph I have received "expert" advice that the pamor pattern on the blade has been (1) painted on , or (2) etched on. I am no metallurgist; but it seems to me that it would be extremely hard to fake layers of different metals that go intrinsically right through the blade, and whose borders can be clearly seen where the different layers meet the edge. I don't profess to knowledge of kerises, but being somewhat familiar with the provenance of this item I will gladly buy all the ones of this quality that site members assure me can be purchased for $10.00. The workmanship in setting the different coloured sections of jahti wood is of a very high standard, and the carving of figures which I take to be Hindu is excellent. This kris was brought back to Australia by a United Nations policeman over 40 years ago. (Other items he brought back include a carved bone blowpipe from Borneo which I feel sure your members will tell me is plastic, and a Dayak hair comb which no doubt was bought in Wal-Mart. There are also two statues which just cannot be found today; but again I'm sure I'll be informed that these were run up in a backstreet in Denpasar.) I have shown this item to a native Indonesian whose brother is a respected dukun, and who confirms the authenticity. His guess is that the keris was confiscated, as no owner would part with a family one for mere money. I have since sold the keris to a local collector who is extremely happy with his purchase. So in the one corner we have an Indonesian who has a deep knowledge of the keris and who has inspected the physical item; and in the other we have someone whose credentials are unknown to me but who tells me on the basis of a photo that the intrinsic pattern has been painted on a single sheet of metal, and I have to decide which one to believe - gee whiz, that's a tough decision!! I note in passing that someone has posted photos on this thread which have nothing to do with the item under discussion. (Incidentally, the 'peanut' to whom I refer is someone who kept popping up on my ebay auctions like a bad cold). In closing, I agree that Balinese copies are extant - of course they are; but the point that all you learned gentlemen seem to miss is "What are they copies of?" There have to be some originals that are themselves copied, and that is the case here.

3rd October 2006, 08:11 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Moderator's Note The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks. Ian.

3rd October 2006, 08:41 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Another Moderator's Note You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his. People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon. I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung. May we all profit in some way from this experience . I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to. Anyone ? Rick