Questions about Mr. Khorasani's lecture

Rivkin · 2nd October 2006, 04:37 PM

Ok, since no one seems to comment... I actually liked Manoucher's lecture, I did find it very informative and concise. Concerning the points - may be he used slightly stronger phrases than he should have, I mean I don't disagree with the principle that there was a competition between stabbing and slashing cavalry techniques, that ancient bronze is not as well studied as it could have been and that gladius is primaraly a stabbing weapon. Now, details may be slightly off.

fernando · 3rd October 2006, 09:51 PM

I have once read that, the discussion had in Rome about the Gladius was to which ( optional ) function it sould have in their Forces, due to its dual possibilities. The stabbing party won the discussion, and the Gladius was appointed to Infantry. Maybe this meant that training was more directed to stabbing, but this doesn't exclude contextual slashing use on the field.
Titus Livius has also writen "Hispano punctim magis quam caesim adsueto petere hostem", meaning that this sword was so good for stabbing as for cutting ( in a home made translation ).
I have also read in a Portuguese Forum that, this tongue shaped Celtiberian origin sword, was well balanced for both stabbing and cutting, whereas its Roman Pompei evolution (?) with a paralel blade, was more of a stabbing weapon, although the reason for change was a an economic one ( easier = cheapper ), more than tactical. But this was much later on.

mross · 4th October 2006, 10:00 PM

Take a look at this;

http://romans-in-britain.org.uk/mil_...le_tactics.htm

I can see how the thrust is more useful but certainly not the only way to use this sword. I find it very hard to believe that any commander would catagorically restrict his troops use of a weapon. However if you are in the turtle I would think your fellow troops would not be fond of you swinging away. So I think perhaps the language may have been too strong or the reference was taken out of context. All in all the book looks intresting, but I think I'll see if it shows up on half.com.

Bugeisha · 5th October 2006, 12:06 AM

Hi Ariel,

Thanks for posting that link. I really enjoyed that lecture. Lots of great information. I really got to get my hands on his book, LOL!

You bring up some good points. Now as far as the 1st statement, there is valid points on both sides. Why would it have an edge (double edge at that) when its only use is for thrusting? Good question... I have read a lot of your posts, I know your savy to arms. One thing that remains is the tactics used by the Roman army, and that is discribed by Manoucher very well. This juggernuat of scutum and gladiuses, if you will, is highly effective but requires mass amount of teamwork. Teamwork, I beleive, was the key to Roman success. If you have a gap from someone trying to do their own thing, i.e. slashing, it would cause an opening in your line of defense. It seems very probable to me that the Romans were taught to fight a certain way for tactical reasons. Even to this day martial arts are taught in a specific way, i.e. stike this way, not like that. If you were in the front line, shoulder to shoulder, shield to shield, would you want the infantry guys on both sides of you swinging their swords? I know I wouldn't, lol. Thinking in that light, its very easy to beleive that Roman soldiers were forbidden from trying to slash the opponent. On the flip side of the coin, an induvidual fight could not be fought the same as a large scale battle. Altough, I do believe underlining priciples would be the same. Manoucher said something in the lecture that I believe would have value now. In Kenjutsu you are taught to block or parry with the side or the back of blade, never the edge of the sword. Its forbidden in most ryuha. I also learned from Toby Threadgill if something happens and it comes down to a choice of getting cut or blocking with the edge of the sword. Block with the edge, at least you will live.
I feel the same way about the Gladius. Its a thrusting weapon intended to do so, but if all hell breaks loose, survive. Would I say that the gladius was only a thrusting weapon? No, but I think thats what made it famous.

As far as the question about wristbreakers. When I watched the lecture, Manoucher said that the motion of trying to stab a hard target from horse back caused "a wristbreaking motion". He didn't call them "wristbreakers". The audio from the website wasn't that great, though.

As far as the bronze challenge to the guys at MIT. I don't know too much about bronze or casting, but from my impression it sounded like Manoucher was referring to the casting processes. I'm really not too sure about this one.

Thanks for the thread!
Jahun

tsubame1 · 6th October 2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeisha

As far as the question about wristbreakers. When I watched the lecture, Manoucher said that the motion of trying to stab a hard target from horse back caused "a wristbreaking motion". He didn't call them "wristbreakers". The audio from the website wasn't that great, though.

Depends on what you want to ear...

fernando · 5th October 2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Titus Livius has also writen "Hispano punctim magis quam caesim adsueto petere hostem", meaning that this sword was so good for stabbing as for cutting ( in a home made translation )

.
Well, that was a lousy translation i got. This was the batlle of Cannes and, in a documented translation the phrase means that the gladii used by the Hispanos, whom were used to thrusting rather than cutting, were short, thus handy, and also pointy.

Justin · 6th October 2006, 12:09 AM

This is only my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that in our sophisticated modern age,there were ancient bronze casting techniques that cant be replicated now.Not only have we made massive technological advances in casting but many modern techniques are directly descended from ancient ones.Sometimes the biggest difference can be the modern materials used now alloys,casting medium, ect while the process itself is basically the same.

B.I · 6th October 2006, 09:48 AM

in my opinion, i dont think early persian casting surpassed that of 16thC india, which incorprated techniques still used today (in india or course). not saying indian work was better, but was easily the equal in techinique and quality, and many centuries later.
i have seen the lecture and i feel that he was promoting all things persia, using slight exaggeration. nothing wrong with this. i have a dealer friend that i share a regular joke with. each piece he shows me is ''the best in the world''. he doesnt actually mean this, he just means his piece is pretty bloody good.
so, i feel the lecturer meant that persian casting was of a high quality, which he expressed by saying it was the ''best in the world''.
just a salesmans pitch. maybe he is on commission from the iranian tourist board? (joke!!! please dont anyone get offended!!)

Doug M · 6th October 2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

in my opinion, i dont think early persian casting surpassed that of 16thC india, which incorprated techniques still used today (in india or course). not saying indian work was better, but was easily the equal in techinique and quality, and many centuries later.

One should also look at this quote: "This is only my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that in our sophisticated modern age,there were ancient bronze casting techniques that cant be replicated now.Not only have we made massive technological advances in casting but many modern techniques are directly descended from ancient ones.Sometimes the biggest difference can be the modern materials used now alloys,casting medium, ect while the process itself is basically the same." Gentlemen, how many book on ancient Persian castng have you read? How else do you support your opinions?

Quote:

i have seen the lecture and i feel that he was promoting all things persia, using slight exaggeration. nothing wrong with this.

That is quite a feeling ya got there. Perhaps you should emphasize the logicof this claim and prove it. However, the claim made falls to the wayside when the claim is given a moment's thought.

Quote:

i have a dealer friend that i share a regular joke with. each piece he shows me is ''the best in the world''. he doesnt actually mean this, he just means his piece is pretty bloody good.
so, i feel the lecturer meant that persian casting was of a high quality, which he expressed by saying it was the ''best in the world''.

Sorry, but your "dealer friend" situation is unrelated.

When you listen to the lecture, you can note that "the lecturer" specifically discusses how difficult it was to cast a grip via the lost wax
process. It should be noted that the people who cast these weapons did so without the use of modern technology, and this is yet to be replicated. Thus, if one wants to find out how MIT students are faring in this challenge to cast such a weapon successfully, one should inquire about it. And one should not be surprised if success has not been reached.

Quote:

just a salesmans pitch. maybe he is on commission from the iranian tourist board? (joke!!! please dont anyone get offended!!)

If you truly did not mean to offend, why post it if you knew it could offend?

Finally, it is curious that Dr. Feuerbach's review has been ignored. Indeed, the statements here seem to be less about the book and more about the author. Why this is persisting is very strange. Gentlemen, focus on the book, not the author.

Doug M

Rivkin · 6th October 2006, 06:16 PM

First here we discuss the lecture, not the book. While I disagree with Ariel's analysis of the gladius, I think he initially raised a valid point, which we are discussing here. Concerning students at MIT - I doubt they do bronze casting in their spare time, however I found no reference in books on middle eastern bronze (starting with Gorelik) that persian one was something better than caucasian for example. May be it is, may be it is not, I am no specialist, I don't know.

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach - her review is her review and her beliefs are her beliefs. We have a separate thread to discuss it.

5th October 2006, 12:06 AM	#4
Bugeisha Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1	great lecture Hi Ariel, Thanks for posting that link. I really enjoyed that lecture. Lots of great information. I really got to get my hands on his book, LOL! You bring up some good points. Now as far as the 1st statement, there is valid points on both sides. Why would it have an edge (double edge at that) when its only use is for thrusting? Good question... I have read a lot of your posts, I know your savy to arms. One thing that remains is the tactics used by the Roman army, and that is discribed by Manoucher very well. This juggernuat of scutum and gladiuses, if you will, is highly effective but requires mass amount of teamwork. Teamwork, I beleive, was the key to Roman success. If you have a gap from someone trying to do their own thing, i.e. slashing, it would cause an opening in your line of defense. It seems very probable to me that the Romans were taught to fight a certain way for tactical reasons. Even to this day martial arts are taught in a specific way, i.e. stike this way, not like that. If you were in the front line, shoulder to shoulder, shield to shield, would you want the infantry guys on both sides of you swinging their swords? I know I wouldn't, lol. Thinking in that light, its very easy to beleive that Roman soldiers were forbidden from trying to slash the opponent. On the flip side of the coin, an induvidual fight could not be fought the same as a large scale battle. Altough, I do believe underlining priciples would be the same. Manoucher said something in the lecture that I believe would have value now. In Kenjutsu you are taught to block or parry with the side or the back of blade, never the edge of the sword. Its forbidden in most ryuha. I also learned from Toby Threadgill if something happens and it comes down to a choice of getting cut or blocking with the edge of the sword. Block with the edge, at least you will live. I feel the same way about the Gladius. Its a thrusting weapon intended to do so, but if all hell breaks loose, survive. Would I say that the gladius was only a thrusting weapon? No, but I think thats what made it famous. As far as the question about wristbreakers. When I watched the lecture, Manoucher said that the motion of trying to stab a hard target from horse back caused "a wristbreaking motion". He didn't call them "wristbreakers". The audio from the website wasn't that great, though. As far as the bronze challenge to the guys at MIT. I don't know too much about bronze or casting, but from my impression it sounded like Manoucher was referring to the casting processes. I'm really not too sure about this one. Thanks for the thread! Jahun

2nd October 2006, 04:37 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ok, since no one seems to comment... I actually liked Manoucher's lecture, I did find it very informative and concise. Concerning the points - may be he used slightly stronger phrases than he should have, I mean I don't disagree with the principle that there was a competition between stabbing and slashing cavalry techniques, that ancient bronze is not as well studied as it could have been and that gladius is primaraly a stabbing weapon. Now, details may be slightly off.

3rd October 2006, 09:51 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have once read that, the discussion had in Rome about the Gladius was to which ( optional ) function it sould have in their Forces, due to its dual possibilities. The stabbing party won the discussion, and the Gladius was appointed to Infantry. Maybe this meant that training was more directed to stabbing, but this doesn't exclude contextual slashing use on the field. Titus Livius has also writen "Hispano punctim magis quam caesim adsueto petere hostem", meaning that this sword was so good for stabbing as for cutting ( in a home made translation ). I have also read in a Portuguese Forum that, this tongue shaped Celtiberian origin sword, was well balanced for both stabbing and cutting, whereas its Roman Pompei evolution (?) with a paralel blade, was more of a stabbing weapon, although the reason for change was a an economic one ( easier = cheapper ), more than tactical. But this was much later on.

4th October 2006, 10:00 PM	#3
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Take a look at this; http://romans-in-britain.org.uk/mil_...le_tactics.htm I can see how the thrust is more useful but certainly not the only way to use this sword. I find it very hard to believe that any commander would catagorically restrict his troops use of a weapon. However if you are in the turtle I would think your fellow troops would not be fond of you swinging away. So I think perhaps the language may have been too strong or the reference was taken out of context. All in all the book looks intresting, but I think I'll see if it shows up on half.com.

6th October 2006, 12:09 AM	#7
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 180	This is only my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that in our sophisticated modern age,there were ancient bronze casting techniques that cant be replicated now.Not only have we made massive technological advances in casting but many modern techniques are directly descended from ancient ones.Sometimes the biggest difference can be the modern materials used now alloys,casting medium, ect while the process itself is basically the same.

6th October 2006, 09:48 AM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	in my opinion, i dont think early persian casting surpassed that of 16thC india, which incorprated techniques still used today (in india or course). not saying indian work was better, but was easily the equal in techinique and quality, and many centuries later. i have seen the lecture and i feel that he was promoting all things persia, using slight exaggeration. nothing wrong with this. i have a dealer friend that i share a regular joke with. each piece he shows me is ''the best in the world''. he doesnt actually mean this, he just means his piece is pretty bloody good. so, i feel the lecturer meant that persian casting was of a high quality, which he expressed by saying it was the ''best in the world''. just a salesmans pitch. maybe he is on commission from the iranian tourist board? (joke!!! please dont anyone get offended!!)

6th October 2006, 06:16 PM	#10
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	First here we discuss the lecture, not the book. While I disagree with Ariel's analysis of the gladius, I think he initially raised a valid point, which we are discussing here. Concerning students at MIT - I doubt they do bronze casting in their spare time, however I found no reference in books on middle eastern bronze (starting with Gorelik) that persian one was something better than caucasian for example. May be it is, may be it is not, I am no specialist, I don't know. Concerning Dr. Feuerbach - her review is her review and her beliefs are her beliefs. We have a separate thread to discuss it.