Comments?

Naga Sasra · 7th February 2005, 02:55 AM

I guess the “old boy” attribution is in order, as it really seems that I need a new set of glasses, I was mistaken in what I saw as a club in his right hand was in fact his knee, I am truly sorry.

This however, do not change the attribution to Bima with the time period previously stated.
Let me start with the main characters in our discussion.

PENDAWA: The name Pandawa (The Warriors) is derived from the story of a noble family who are the lead characters in the story of the Mahabharata. This story was written more than 2000 years ago in India, the story was brought to Indonesia where it became popular, particularly on the Islands of Bali and Jawa.
The story is of the constant struggle between good and evil, and jealousy and power struggles between two sets of cousins the Pandawas representing the good forces, and the Kurawas the evil forces, who both want to rule their kingdom.
The second of the Pandawa brothers is Bima.

BIMA: Is known for his great strength and violence in battle where he wields a club or sword, he has round protruding eyes, a long nose and long thumbnails, he may or may not show his teeth, but will never have his mouth wide open. He also have or have not the other characteristics that I mentioned earlier.

RAKSASA OR RAKSASI: (female) in Hindu mythology is a type of demon or goblin; they have the power to change their shape at will and can appear as animals, as monsters and the female as a beautiful women. They are most powerful in the evening during the dark period of the new moon, but they are dispelled by the rising sun, sort of like a combination of a werewolf and a vampire.
Raksasas are demons with strongly colored complexions, bulging eyes and wide-opened mouths, which display rows of glittering teeth.

As for Rick’s handle, it is an example of Bima, as he do not have his mouth wide open and he carry his club in his right hand. And have a long nose.. Nice example Rick.

Regarding the attribution on Dominique’s web site, from Pictures from "UKIRAN - Essai de classification des poignées de kris de l'archipel indonésien" from Gaspard de Narval, I will respectfully disagree with some of his attributions, such as the Raksasa mentioned, look at Mick’s handle, I see a large thumb and a set of teeth, but definitely not the wide-open mouth that would make him a Raksasa. I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here!

nechesh · 7th February 2005, 03:42 AM

Sorry Naga Sasra, i think i must respectfully disagree if what you are saying is that Mick's ukiran is not a Raksasa. Besides bearing his teeth, this figure also has fangs. Does Bima have fangs? I have three Raksasa hilts, two in this same crouching position that bear a striking resemblance to Mick's, though made of wood, and one standing. If these are not raksasa could you post a photo of what you believe is? Keep in mind that depictions of Raksasa from Hindu mythology may not appear exactly the same as they do in Jawa and Bali. I have never known a wide opened mouth to be a requirement. Aside from de Narval i have seen this hilt form IDed time and time again as Raksasa by many other authors.

Naga Sasra · 7th February 2005, 04:14 AM

Don't be sorry nechesh, I am happy that we have this discussion, and I do understand the confusion, as I agree with your logic.

Yes, Bima can have fangs and I have the pictures of these in Martin Kerners Book. Unfortunately I cannot just copy what is his copyright for the obvious reasons.
I do understand that the Hindu mythology images are not necessarily what would be depicted in Jawa and Bali, and the photos that are in the book show handles from Jawa and Bali.

I have like you seen most handles with ugly faces being called Raksasa in most of the Keris and Hulu books, which if they in fact are demons is okay, but if they are not demons and are other figures from history, then I do not believe that is fine, which is why I continue on the subject.

Here again we suffer from lack of prudent evidence, as way too little have been written on the subject and it is my sincere hope that this conversation can lead to some understanding of the Hindu type handles.

Rick · 7th February 2005, 03:12 PM

I had posted the ukiran for confirmation that it was a Bima . Earlier I had been told it was Bayu .

Now here is yet another figural ukiran I can't identify :

nechesh · 7th February 2005, 07:30 PM

C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!

Rick · 7th February 2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!

Seriously though , another Bima ?

I know it's funky .

Mick · 7th February 2005, 10:29 PM

If those are long thumbnails and not a belly button, Yes

Alam Shah · 7th February 2005, 03:54 AM

Dear Naga Sasra,
Based on references from Bambang Harsrinuksmo - Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the photo of the handle looks exactly the same as Mick's (minus the jewels).

Naga wrote:
> I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here!

I will look for some other sources to get a 'beyond reasonable doubt' verdict..

7th February 2005, 03:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I had posted the ukiran for confirmation that it was a Bima . Earlier I had been told it was Bayu . Now here is yet another figural ukiran I can't identify : Attached Images

7th February 2005, 02:55 AM	#1
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	I guess the “old boy” attribution is in order, as it really seems that I need a new set of glasses, I was mistaken in what I saw as a club in his right hand was in fact his knee, I am truly sorry. This however, do not change the attribution to Bima with the time period previously stated. Let me start with the main characters in our discussion. PENDAWA: The name Pandawa (The Warriors) is derived from the story of a noble family who are the lead characters in the story of the Mahabharata. This story was written more than 2000 years ago in India, the story was brought to Indonesia where it became popular, particularly on the Islands of Bali and Jawa. The story is of the constant struggle between good and evil, and jealousy and power struggles between two sets of cousins the Pandawas representing the good forces, and the Kurawas the evil forces, who both want to rule their kingdom. The second of the Pandawa brothers is Bima. BIMA: Is known for his great strength and violence in battle where he wields a club or sword, he has round protruding eyes, a long nose and long thumbnails, he may or may not show his teeth, but will never have his mouth wide open. He also have or have not the other characteristics that I mentioned earlier. RAKSASA OR RAKSASI: (female) in Hindu mythology is a type of demon or goblin; they have the power to change their shape at will and can appear as animals, as monsters and the female as a beautiful women. They are most powerful in the evening during the dark period of the new moon, but they are dispelled by the rising sun, sort of like a combination of a werewolf and a vampire. Raksasas are demons with strongly colored complexions, bulging eyes and wide-opened mouths, which display rows of glittering teeth. As for Rick’s handle, it is an example of Bima, as he do not have his mouth wide open and he carry his club in his right hand. And have a long nose.. Nice example Rick. Regarding the attribution on Dominique’s web site, from Pictures from "UKIRAN - Essai de classification des poignées de kris de l'archipel indonésien" from Gaspard de Narval, I will respectfully disagree with some of his attributions, such as the Raksasa mentioned, look at Mick’s handle, I see a large thumb and a set of teeth, but definitely not the wide-open mouth that would make him a Raksasa. I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here!

7th February 2005, 03:42 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Naga Sasra, i think i must respectfully disagree if what you are saying is that Mick's ukiran is not a Raksasa. Besides bearing his teeth, this figure also has fangs. Does Bima have fangs? I have three Raksasa hilts, two in this same crouching position that bear a striking resemblance to Mick's, though made of wood, and one standing. If these are not raksasa could you post a photo of what you believe is? Keep in mind that depictions of Raksasa from Hindu mythology may not appear exactly the same as they do in Jawa and Bali. I have never known a wide opened mouth to be a requirement. Aside from de Narval i have seen this hilt form IDed time and time again as Raksasa by many other authors.

7th February 2005, 04:14 AM	#3
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Don't be sorry nechesh, I am happy that we have this discussion, and I do understand the confusion, as I agree with your logic. Yes, Bima can have fangs and I have the pictures of these in Martin Kerners Book. Unfortunately I cannot just copy what is his copyright for the obvious reasons. I do understand that the Hindu mythology images are not necessarily what would be depicted in Jawa and Bali, and the photos that are in the book show handles from Jawa and Bali. I have like you seen most handles with ugly faces being called Raksasa in most of the Keris and Hulu books, which if they in fact are demons is okay, but if they are not demons and are other figures from history, then I do not believe that is fine, which is why I continue on the subject. Here again we suffer from lack of prudent evidence, as way too little have been written on the subject and it is my sincere hope that this conversation can lead to some understanding of the Hindu type handles.

7th February 2005, 07:30 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!

7th February 2005, 10:29 PM	#7
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	If those are long thumbnails and not a belly button, Yes

7th February 2005, 03:54 AM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Dear Naga Sasra, Based on references from Bambang Harsrinuksmo - Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the photo of the handle looks exactly the same as Mick's (minus the jewels). Naga wrote: > I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here! I will look for some other sources to get a 'beyond reasonable doubt' verdict..