steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

ausjulius · 13th September 2006, 07:28 AM

realy very attractive knives,
the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look

very nice daggers,

its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained,
would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades,

it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,

Tim Simmons · 13th September 2006, 05:52 PM

I am of the opinion that certain native nations in the Americas clearly had considerable knowledge and practice with metals. Some of the knives may have been influenced by more general flint and bone daggers. The arrival of iron and steel just adding to the material these artists had to explore. I recently saw a documentary about a type of flint blade found all over the Americas that was only supposed to be in Europe and people were getting pretty hot under the collar about it. Some interesting hypothesis were battled over but no one would consider universality of function and maturity of design.

fearn · 14th September 2006, 04:57 AM

Hi All,

Actually, I think there's one interesting fact that's left out of here:

there were two groups of native Americans who did have iron, although they seldom used it for weapons, other than perhaps harpoon, spear, and arrow tips.

Both the Inuit and the Dorset people who preceeded them used iron that they broke off three large meteorites that were found at Cape York. They cold-hammered the iron pieces into useable shapes. In effect, there was an "Arctic iron age" using stone-age technology.

About a month ago, I finished reading McGhee's Ancient Peoples of the Arctic which is a fun book if you like archeology.

Figured I should throw that in there. A bigger puzzle is why no one in the Andes learned how to use iron, given that it's relatively common in the cordillera.

F

Yanyeidi · 15th February 2007, 09:18 PM

Here's another dagger from Angoon. This was isn't as old as the Killer Whale Dagger. This one is called Xoots Gwalaa (Brown Bear Dagger). It has abalone inlay in the eyes. It was returned to the Bear Clan by a museum in 1999.

FenrisWolf · 19th February 2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanyeidi

Here's another dagger from Angoon. This was isn't as old as the Killer Whale Dagger. This one is called Xoots Gwalaa (Brown Bear Dagger). It has abalone inlay in the eyes. It was returned to the Bear Clan by a museum in 1999.

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

David · 19th February 2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

Well, i would image that would depend upon whether or not the weapon had any deep religious, spiritual, and/or cultural significance to the community (tribe, people, nation) from which it was stolen.
Not as likely with a claymore or a dirk...

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2007, 05:23 PM

One might have to be a little more sensitive to these matters when it involves art works from communities that live in the same country/nation rather than trophies from foreign wars. I am not from the give back camp in latter case.

Rick · 19th February 2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

This is happening in the world of art ; many of WWII's looted paintings are being recovered by their original owners or their descendants.

15th February 2007, 09:18 PM	#4
Yanyeidi Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Another Tlingit Dagger Here's another dagger from Angoon. This was isn't as old as the Killer Whale Dagger. This one is called Xoots Gwalaa (Brown Bear Dagger). It has abalone inlay in the eyes. It was returned to the Bear Clan by a museum in 1999. Attached Images

13th September 2006, 07:28 AM	#1
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	realy very attractive knives, the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look very nice daggers, its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained, would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades, it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,

13th September 2006, 05:52 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I am of the opinion that certain native nations in the Americas clearly had considerable knowledge and practice with metals. Some of the knives may have been influenced by more general flint and bone daggers. The arrival of iron and steel just adding to the material these artists had to explore. I recently saw a documentary about a type of flint blade found all over the Americas that was only supposed to be in Europe and people were getting pretty hot under the collar about it. Some interesting hypothesis were battled over but no one would consider universality of function and maturity of design.

14th September 2006, 04:57 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Actually, I think there's one interesting fact that's left out of here: there were two groups of native Americans who did have iron, although they seldom used it for weapons, other than perhaps harpoon, spear, and arrow tips. Both the Inuit and the Dorset people who preceeded them used iron that they broke off three large meteorites that were found at Cape York. They cold-hammered the iron pieces into useable shapes. In effect, there was an "Arctic iron age" using stone-age technology. About a month ago, I finished reading McGhee's Ancient Peoples of the Arctic which is a fun book if you like archeology. Figured I should throw that in there. A bigger puzzle is why no one in the Andes learned how to use iron, given that it's relatively common in the cordillera. F

19th February 2007, 05:23 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	One might have to be a little more sensitive to these matters when it involves art works from communities that live in the same country/nation rather than trophies from foreign wars. I am not from the give back camp in latter case.