![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
|
![]()
Got any comments on this thiis thing ?
Picture removed per request of the O.P. 7/21/2011 Last edited by Rick; 22nd July 2011 at 01:48 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Cool Raksasa.
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 17
|
![]()
Hello dear Mick,
this is the second handle from metal of this kind i have seen. The style is early or mid 17th cent. See my avatar. I dont dare to appraise them to this age without seeing the original. But i don`t think its new. Please let us see the right,left and backside and hairs too. This handle is gilded or of gold and filled with clay? My Regards ek |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
|
![]()
nechesh
The piece is Javanese. It is about three inches tall and the stones are inten. I know the stones are inten because I had them installed. empu kumis It is only the third that I have seen. The first was split by a shovel strike while excavating it and the bottom half was flattened out on both sides of the split. The metal is gold and is right now filled with wax to provide support to figure. Besides replacing the inten some small tears of the material was repaired. I will have to make more photographs to furnish all side views, but basically it is extremely similar to the figures from Cirebon. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Fascinating. I have never seen Javanese ukiran with set stones so i guess that threw me. Also the gold, these materials are not usual for Jawa. What are inten, i do not know this stone?
You seem to know a bit more about this piece then you are telling, so out with it Mick! ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
|
![]()
nechesh
Inten is a raw uncut (or slightly cut) diamond from the mines outside of Banjermasin in southern Borneo. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 46
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Land below the wind
Posts: 135
|
![]()
Mick,
I've always enjoyed ALL the items you've posted and have saved them for references, if you don't mind ![]() When it comes to figurine hilts like the one you've posted or Empu Kumis' avatar, I've had futile attempts in finding references as to who the dieties are precisely, their names etc; one always get a general description such as a diety, a raksasa or a god. Still trying to find out who the figures such as yours and EK's are if you or anyone knows. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Devon ,England
Posts: 80
|
![]()
"When it comes to figurine hilts like the one you've posted or Empu Kumis' avatar, I've had futile attempts in finding references as to who the dieties are precisely, their names etc; one always get a general description such as a diety, a raksasa or a god. Still trying to find out who the figures such as yours and EK's are if you or anyone knows"
![]() ![]() p.s. i just figured out how to do the quote thing ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
Based on references from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the handle is definitely from Cirebon. It's a raksasa kerdil. Mainly it is made from wood and normally it is not fitted with any jewels.
Materials and style might be incorporated with inspiration from Balinese handles. (My 2 cents worth.) ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 108
|
![]()
I believe I have had the pleasure to inspect this handle in person, thank you Mick.
From what I remember it is correctly identified as from Jawa made in the 16-17th century based upon a model that date back to the Central Javanese Hindu era (about 9th century) I also seem to remember it had a core of resin and was covered in high karat gold foil. The attribute in the right hand is the club, which points to Raden Bima. The cone shape on the socket also suggest that the item is missing the selut. Either way it is a great piece of history. Thank you for sharing this with us all. For the forum members that are seeking written information on keris handles, may I suggest Keris-Griffe by Martin Kerner, CH-3116 Kirchdorf, Switzerland |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
Thanks for the reference, mate.
![]() ![]() Last edited by Alam Shah; 6th February 2005 at 04:29 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Land below the wind
Posts: 135
|
![]() Quote:
Am I right to assume this Raden Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers of the Mahabarata epic (Yudhistira, Bima, Arjuna, Nakula and Sahadewa)? Don't quite recall the club attribute. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 108
|
![]()
John, you are absolutely correct, Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers. He is shown as an armourer in the relief of Candi Sukuh among other places.
He has been iconized in many different ways with attribute in his right hand (sword or club) or no attribute at all, he has also been shown with or with out a hair bun and with or without long thump nails, sitting, squatting or standing. For more information I suggest “Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen” by Martin Kerner. It is written mostly in German but with some English translations. Oh John, thanks for the “old boy” attribution ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Sorry guys, you are losing me here.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
|
![]()
Joining Nechesh in his confusion .
![]() This would be Bima ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
Joining the confusion...Have a look at Cirebon hilts. This is raksasa kerdil.
![]() Another reference link. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...north_java.htm |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Land below the wind
Posts: 135
|
![]()
Rick, is your example an affirmative Bima?
Erik and Alam Shah, thanks for puttings things on the table. Figurines as such are fascinating but references have been vague it seems. So as it is; Bima or Raksasa Kerdil? or what? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
Mick's a Cirebon raksasa kerdil while Rick's example is a Bima.
I think, Rick is giving the pics for comparison. The difference is quite obvious. ![]() Below, link to a drawing of a Bima hilt. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm Last edited by Alam Shah; 7th February 2005 at 02:44 AM. Reason: added link info |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 108
|
![]()
I guess the “old boy” attribution is in order, as it really seems that I need a new set of glasses, I was mistaken in what I saw as a club in his right hand was in fact his knee, I am truly sorry.
![]() This however, do not change the attribution to Bima with the time period previously stated. Let me start with the main characters in our discussion. PENDAWA: The name Pandawa (The Warriors) is derived from the story of a noble family who are the lead characters in the story of the Mahabharata. This story was written more than 2000 years ago in India, the story was brought to Indonesia where it became popular, particularly on the Islands of Bali and Jawa. The story is of the constant struggle between good and evil, and jealousy and power struggles between two sets of cousins the Pandawas representing the good forces, and the Kurawas the evil forces, who both want to rule their kingdom. The second of the Pandawa brothers is Bima. BIMA: Is known for his great strength and violence in battle where he wields a club or sword, he has round protruding eyes, a long nose and long thumbnails, he may or may not show his teeth, but will never have his mouth wide open. He also have or have not the other characteristics that I mentioned earlier. RAKSASA OR RAKSASI: (female) in Hindu mythology is a type of demon or goblin; they have the power to change their shape at will and can appear as animals, as monsters and the female as a beautiful women. They are most powerful in the evening during the dark period of the new moon, but they are dispelled by the rising sun, sort of like a combination of a werewolf and a vampire. Raksasas are demons with strongly colored complexions, bulging eyes and wide-opened mouths, which display rows of glittering teeth. As for Rick’s handle, it is an example of Bima, as he do not have his mouth wide open and he carry his club in his right hand. And have a long nose.. Nice example Rick. Regarding the attribution on Dominique’s web site, from Pictures from "UKIRAN - Essai de classification des poignées de kris de l'archipel indonésien" from Gaspard de Narval, I will respectfully disagree with some of his attributions, such as the Raksasa mentioned, look at Mick’s handle, I see a large thumb and a set of teeth, but definitely not the wide-open mouth that would make him a Raksasa. I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Sorry Naga Sasra, i think i must respectfully disagree if what you are saying is that Mick's ukiran is not a Raksasa. Besides bearing his teeth, this figure also has fangs. Does Bima have fangs? I have three Raksasa hilts, two in this same crouching position that bear a striking resemblance to Mick's, though made of wood, and one standing. If these are not raksasa could you post a photo of what you believe is? Keep in mind that depictions of Raksasa from Hindu mythology may not appear exactly the same as they do in Jawa and Bali. I have never known a wide opened mouth to be a requirement. Aside from de Narval i have seen this hilt form IDed time and time again as Raksasa by many other authors.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
Dear Naga Sasra,
Based on references from Bambang Harsrinuksmo - Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the photo of the handle looks exactly the same as Mick's (minus the jewels). Naga wrote: > I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here! I will look for some other sources to get a 'beyond reasonable doubt' verdict.. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 108
|
![]()
Don't be sorry nechesh, I am happy that we have this discussion, and I do understand the confusion, as I agree with your logic.
Yes, Bima can have fangs and I have the pictures of these in Martin Kerners Book. Unfortunately I cannot just copy what is his copyright for the obvious reasons. I do understand that the Hindu mythology images are not necessarily what would be depicted in Jawa and Bali, and the photos that are in the book show handles from Jawa and Bali. I have like you seen most handles with ugly faces being called Raksasa in most of the Keris and Hulu books, which if they in fact are demons is okay, but if they are not demons and are other figures from history, then I do not believe that is fine, which is why I continue on the subject. Here again we suffer from lack of prudent evidence, as way too little have been written on the subject and it is my sincere hope that this conversation can lead to some understanding of the Hindu type handles. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
|
![]()
I had posted the ukiran for confirmation that it was a Bima . Earlier I had been told it was Bayu .
Now here is yet another figural ukiran I can't identify : |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() I know it's funky . ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
|
![]()
If those are long thumbnails and not a belly button, Yes
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Land below the wind
Posts: 135
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|