Brass hilted kris for comment

wolviex · 5th February 2005, 11:23 AM

Dear Friends!
On the pages of old forum I have presented a few pieces of Visayan weapons, plus something more, from Krakow's National Museum (Poland). I think now it is the time to bring you more pieces from my museum, leaving for a while european sabres, while it's seem that Radu is not present here lately. This time I would like to foucs on krises. But unfortunately, in my museum are only

few pieces of this beautiful weapons. We're poorer than poorest kris collector. It's not the shame I think, while the main subject of our collection lays else where. But this entail some of the problems for me. There is NO book on this subject around me I could learn anything about this weapons. Even basic literature is out of my reach, and at this moment there is no chance to bring it for me from aboard. So you're are my only hope. The multitude of text about krises at this forum is very helpful, but generates another problem - there is so much of it, that there is no time to learn everything, and most of you are using very definite language, sometimes unintelligible for begginers like me, because of multitude of appellations. So the first question is, what is the best place in internet, to learn the dictionary of krise's names?

This kris which I would like to present to you as the first one, is interesting because of brass hilt. The hilt is partially damaged, that's a shame, but this let us to learn how it was made. The hilt is wrapped with wood (attached with small nails or rivets), where is a brass wire attached from underneath, and then wrapped around the hilt, interweaved with brass strip. It looks very nice from me, what You all keris experts and lovers are thinking about it? The grip is very well modeled, with a rib on two opposite sides,and thickening at the middle. So the cross-section of the hilt is not round but oval. The pommel (in european meaning

) is worth of seeing too, with a brass "snake-like", engraved piece.
I won't discribe the blade and the ring at the hilt, I think you'll know the best what is it, and what is worth of comment. Feel free to discuss it, because I need your help to learn more about it.

Few more facts: it's bacame property of National Museum just after the II World War, so I think it was brought to Europe not later, but around 30's or 20's of 20th century. Maybe you'll find this older. The blade is still sharp, under the open-worked ring is a bone one.

Its measurements:
Lenght of the blade: 35,5 cm (13,9 '')
lenght of the hilt: 11,7 cm (4,6'')
"pommel": 4,5 x 3,7 cm (1,7'' x 1,4'')
width of the blade at the hilt: 8,5 cm (3,3'')
thickness of the blade at the hilt: 0,9 cm (0,35'')

And please, explait me everything like for the baby

or just direct me somewhere for some vocabulary

Best regards!

Yannis · 5th February 2005, 01:28 PM

Defently I am not the right person to answer this

, but I found this page very helpful:
http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/

There are more in parent site of this forum
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/

Battara · 5th February 2005, 01:47 PM

Your keris is from Bali. The dapor, blade smoothness and hilt are all Balinese. Shame that the hilt is in the shape it is in. Others can tell you more about this. The mendak (ring between the blade and hilt) is not typical Balinese and seems to be made of silver and was a later addition.

Alam Shah · 5th February 2005, 01:59 PM

First impression...It's a Balinese keris.
Hilt: danganan Bali ...
Hilt ring: mendak cincin...(european design...i think)
Damascus pattern : Pamor ngulit Semangko

(Note: danganan = ukiran)

Henk · 5th February 2005, 04:18 PM

It is a balinese keris. I thought this ukiran was called grantim. Is the copper gilded? A shame that it is so badly damaged.

wolviex · 5th February 2005, 05:41 PM

Thank you for your replies so far, but... well.... is good or bad one ?? How do you judge this kris ??

Battara · 5th February 2005, 06:12 PM

If someone offered me this for sale, I would refuse it because of the damage on the hilt and the mendak. The mendak (ring) is not a problem to replace, however, the hilt is a different story. It would either have to be replaced or it would need major restoration from someone on Bali. I must also note that the rest of the dress, like the scabbard, would need to be present as well.

nechesh · 5th February 2005, 06:32 PM

As everyone has commented, it is a shame about the hilt. I know this form as Garantiman, but i believe Frey has used the word Grantim as Henk has stated. The snake-like piece you describe i believe is supposed to represent a lotus sprout. Though only made of brass, i would still say this was a nice example as it is actually woven material, not just a cast piece of metal as some of the later examples of this form were.
The mendak does look more like an adaptation than an authentic piece, made to fit better with the bone underneath.
The blade is not unattractive, and in response to Jose's comment, if it was offered to me for sale it would all depend on just how much it was offered for.

wolviex · 5th February 2005, 07:39 PM

Yes, I truly understand your dissapointment about the damage of the hilt, but now in museum, far away from the place of birth, it has only a historical and curiosity value. But my question is, how about brass hilts in general, is it really (as Stone has ascribed, if I do remember well) rather rare form of hilt. Most of you krises presented seems to be wooden hilted anyway.
And other one: any suggestions about age of this piece. I know it's the hardest thing to define, but do you think it's 20th or could be 2nd half of 19th century, for example ? Stupid question anyway, I know, but being completly green, I'm going to ask more of them

nechesh · 5th February 2005, 08:37 PM

I think that hilts made of metal are far more common from Bali then elsewhere in the area. It is not unusual, but other materials are still more common to find. Wood would still be the most common material. My guess would be that your example is late 19th - early 20th Century.

Sang Keris · 6th February 2005, 12:53 AM

i think it's not balinesse keris , but from Lombok.

nechesh · 6th February 2005, 05:11 AM

Weta, as far as i know this style of hilt can be found on both Bali and Lombok keris. There is very little if any difference between them as Lombok was a colony of Bali for many years and under it's influence.

Alam Shah · 6th February 2005, 08:02 AM

Balinese influenced kerises includes those from Lombok, Sumbawa and other parts of East Nusa Tenggara. But keris from Lombok and Sumbawa are generally thinner and slightly shorter than kerises from Bali.

Therefore, in my opinion, looking at the blade and danganan, this is a Balinese keris.

wolviex · 7th February 2005, 08:34 PM

Here is a discussion at old forum where you can find (go below the site) a kris hilted very similiar as mine, but with the silver wire and silver plate, not brass. The form of the hilt is almost identical. There you can also an information from BluErf "there were gold examples, but very rarely seen". Unfortunately kris from my museum isn't gold, it isn't even gilt, I think it's just a pure brass

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002478.html

Regards

Alam Shah · 8th February 2005, 04:57 AM

There are similar pictures of hilts in Kris Gli Invincibili - The Invincible Krises book by Vanna e Mario Ghiringhelli, on page: 31 (brass), 37 (silver), 99 (brass).

Mick · 15th February 2005, 03:37 PM

Wolviex

Your sample is the first I've ever seen with this difficult weaving in brass. Brass is usually used in Bali as the basic material for the figurative handles which are then plated with gold.

Attached is the only example of brass used in a Balinese handle that I have. It is a representative of the same basic grip that you have showed in this topic, but it was so well done that I gathered it up. It originally had only glass stones, but I was impressed enough with the workmanship that I had the glass replaced with real stones. The coloring of the wood in the grip illustrates the less expensive Pelet work compared to the hilt of your other topic.

BluErf · 16th February 2005, 02:11 PM

I think the wire might not be brass, but silver. The pictures seem to vary in tone quite a bit. The handle looks silvery in some, but golden yellow in others.

wolviex · 16th February 2005, 04:03 PM

It's brass for sure. Two pictures are of low colour tones indeed, my fault. But it's brass and it's yellow shining

. somewehere in the middle of this thread I gave a link to the silver one - if you open this, just scroll down.

wolviex · 23rd February 2005, 09:00 PM

I was wondering how we can call the pamor on this blade?
Is it pamor Tibam, so called "watermelon skin" ??? - I'm only guessing.

Regards

5th February 2005, 11:23 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Brass hilted kris for comment Dear Friends! On the pages of old forum I have presented a few pieces of Visayan weapons, plus something more, from Krakow's National Museum (Poland). I think now it is the time to bring you more pieces from my museum, leaving for a while european sabres, while it's seem that Radu is not present here lately. This time I would like to foucs on krises. But unfortunately, in my museum are only few pieces of this beautiful weapons. We're poorer than poorest kris collector. It's not the shame I think, while the main subject of our collection lays else where. But this entail some of the problems for me. There is NO book on this subject around me I could learn anything about this weapons. Even basic literature is out of my reach, and at this moment there is no chance to bring it for me from aboard. So you're are my only hope. The multitude of text about krises at this forum is very helpful, but generates another problem - there is so much of it, that there is no time to learn everything, and most of you are using very definite language, sometimes unintelligible for begginers like me, because of multitude of appellations. So the first question is, what is the best place in internet, to learn the dictionary of krise's names? This kris which I would like to present to you as the first one, is interesting because of brass hilt. The hilt is partially damaged, that's a shame, but this let us to learn how it was made. The hilt is wrapped with wood (attached with small nails or rivets), where is a brass wire attached from underneath, and then wrapped around the hilt, interweaved with brass strip. It looks very nice from me, what You all keris experts and lovers are thinking about it? The grip is very well modeled, with a rib on two opposite sides,and thickening at the middle. So the cross-section of the hilt is not round but oval. The pommel (in european meaning ) is worth of seeing too, with a brass "snake-like", engraved piece. I won't discribe the blade and the ring at the hilt, I think you'll know the best what is it, and what is worth of comment. Feel free to discuss it, because I need your help to learn more about it. Few more facts: it's bacame property of National Museum just after the II World War, so I think it was brought to Europe not later, but around 30's or 20's of 20th century. Maybe you'll find this older. The blade is still sharp, under the open-worked ring is a bone one. Its measurements: Lenght of the blade: 35,5 cm (13,9 '') lenght of the hilt: 11,7 cm (4,6'') "pommel": 4,5 x 3,7 cm (1,7'' x 1,4'') width of the blade at the hilt: 8,5 cm (3,3'') thickness of the blade at the hilt: 0,9 cm (0,35'') And please, explait me everything like for the baby or just direct me somewhere for some vocabulary Best regards! Attached Images

5th February 2005, 01:59 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	First impression...It's a Balinese keris. Hilt: danganan Bali ... Hilt ring: mendak cincin...(european design...i think) Damascus pattern : Pamor ngulit Semangko (Note: danganan = ukiran) Last edited by Alam Shah; 6th February 2005 at 03:32 AM. Reason: clarification of this post

6th February 2005, 08:02 AM	#13
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Balinese influenced kerises includes those from Lombok, Sumbawa and other parts of East Nusa Tenggara. But keris from Lombok and Sumbawa are generally thinner and slightly shorter than kerises from Bali. Therefore, in my opinion, looking at the blade and danganan, this is a Balinese keris. Last edited by Alam Shah; 6th February 2005 at 08:15 AM.

7th February 2005, 08:34 PM	#14
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Link Here is a discussion at old forum where you can find (go below the site) a kris hilted very similiar as mine, but with the silver wire and silver plate, not brass. The form of the hilt is almost identical. There you can also an information from BluErf "there were gold examples, but very rarely seen". Unfortunately kris from my museum isn't gold, it isn't even gilt, I think it's just a pure brass http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002478.html Regards

8th February 2005, 04:57 AM	#15
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	References... There are similar pictures of hilts in Kris Gli Invincibili - The Invincible Krises book by Vanna e Mario Ghiringhelli, on page: 31 (brass), 37 (silver), 99 (brass). Last edited by Alam Shah; 8th February 2005 at 05:20 AM.

5th February 2005, 01:28 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Defently I am not the right person to answer this , but I found this page very helpful: http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/ There are more in parent site of this forum http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/

5th February 2005, 01:47 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Your keris is from Bali. The dapor, blade smoothness and hilt are all Balinese. Shame that the hilt is in the shape it is in. Others can tell you more about this. The mendak (ring between the blade and hilt) is not typical Balinese and seems to be made of silver and was a later addition.

5th February 2005, 04:18 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It is a balinese keris. I thought this ukiran was called grantim. Is the copper gilded? A shame that it is so badly damaged.

5th February 2005, 05:41 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for your replies so far, but... well.... is good or bad one ?? How do you judge this kris ??

5th February 2005, 06:12 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	If someone offered me this for sale, I would refuse it because of the damage on the hilt and the mendak. The mendak (ring) is not a problem to replace, however, the hilt is a different story. It would either have to be replaced or it would need major restoration from someone on Bali. I must also note that the rest of the dress, like the scabbard, would need to be present as well.

5th February 2005, 06:32 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	As everyone has commented, it is a shame about the hilt. I know this form as Garantiman, but i believe Frey has used the word Grantim as Henk has stated. The snake-like piece you describe i believe is supposed to represent a lotus sprout. Though only made of brass, i would still say this was a nice example as it is actually woven material, not just a cast piece of metal as some of the later examples of this form were. The mendak does look more like an adaptation than an authentic piece, made to fit better with the bone underneath. The blade is not unattractive, and in response to Jose's comment, if it was offered to me for sale it would all depend on just how much it was offered for.

5th February 2005, 07:39 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Yes, I truly understand your dissapointment about the damage of the hilt, but now in museum, far away from the place of birth, it has only a historical and curiosity value. But my question is, how about brass hilts in general, is it really (as Stone has ascribed, if I do remember well) rather rare form of hilt. Most of you krises presented seems to be wooden hilted anyway. And other one: any suggestions about age of this piece. I know it's the hardest thing to define, but do you think it's 20th or could be 2nd half of 19th century, for example ? Stupid question anyway, I know, but being completly green, I'm going to ask more of them

5th February 2005, 08:37 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think that hilts made of metal are far more common from Bali then elsewhere in the area. It is not unusual, but other materials are still more common to find. Wood would still be the most common material. My guess would be that your example is late 19th - early 20th Century.

6th February 2005, 12:53 AM	#11
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	i think it's not balinesse keris , but from Lombok.

6th February 2005, 05:11 AM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Weta, as far as i know this style of hilt can be found on both Bali and Lombok keris. There is very little if any difference between them as Lombok was a colony of Bali for many years and under it's influence.

15th February 2005, 03:37 PM	#16
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Wolviex Your sample is the first I've ever seen with this difficult weaving in brass. Brass is usually used in Bali as the basic material for the figurative handles which are then plated with gold. Attached is the only example of brass used in a Balinese handle that I have. It is a representative of the same basic grip that you have showed in this topic, but it was so well done that I gathered it up. It originally had only glass stones, but I was impressed enough with the workmanship that I had the glass replaced with real stones. The coloring of the wood in the grip illustrates the less expensive Pelet work compared to the hilt of your other topic. Attached Images

16th February 2005, 02:11 PM	#17
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I think the wire might not be brass, but silver. The pictures seem to vary in tone quite a bit. The handle looks silvery in some, but golden yellow in others.

16th February 2005, 04:03 PM	#18
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Brass! It's brass for sure. Two pictures are of low colour tones indeed, my fault. But it's brass and it's yellow shining . somewehere in the middle of this thread I gave a link to the silver one - if you open this, just scroll down.

23rd February 2005, 09:00 PM	#19
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Pamor question I was wondering how we can call the pamor on this blade? Is it pamor Tibam, so called "watermelon skin" ??? - I'm only guessing. Regards