Fighting with keris

Bambang Irian · 7th September 2006, 05:49 AM

In Javanesee concept basically keris is not weapons for fighting, but it is a symbol of live.
Each racikan has a symbol of philosopy.

Bambang Irian

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 06:29 AM

Yes, I agree with you Pak Bambang,in Jawa today the keris is not regarded as a weapon, but it is important to realise that this view of the keris is a comparatively recent one, that appears to have developed during possibly only the last 200 years or so, with an increased emphasis during possibly the last 50 years.

If we examine old Javanese literature, and old historical records, we find that the keris was most definitely used as a weapon in times past.

This is the reason that I say that when we consider the keris, we must consider it within a defined period of time.

Pangeran Datu · 7th September 2006, 08:14 AM

G'day All,
My belief is that to understand something, one has to try and appreciate its environment.
No doubt, in my mind, that the keris was originally designed as a weapon. However, through the belief systems of the time, it developed into a status/ rank/wealth symbol as well as that of mystical power complete with 'pakem' (protocol) etc. Consequently, it became the weapon of last resort, as any respectable male would always have one on him (now merely carried and revered as a symbol/talisman; normally alongside a weapon, such as a wedung). This gave rise to the term 'ngamuk/amuk/amok'; the person not having a 'weapon' to use, is forced to use his keris, as a last resort. However, traditional belief is that a keris, once unsheathed, may not return to its sheath without tasting blood. Thus the person is committed to draw blood. Should he fail, then the keris will turn on him. So 'ngamuk' became synonymous with 'babi-buta' and 'nekad'; loosely tranlates to suicidal blind fury.
As for the martial arts.... penca-silat adopts whatever is at hand to use as a weapon. That is why there is no 'standard' weapon(s) of penca-silat. In the case of the Javanese prince; case in point, he only demonstrated with what he had handy at the time ... a keris ( the same moves would have been just as applicable to the bedog/golok (machete)... much favoured by the West Java penca-silat artists, as that was the most common implement worn on a daily basis).
WRT the Balinese keris... a lot of Javanese fled to Bali under the onslaught of Islamisation, so they could retain their Hindu systems. I think that it was around this period that the Balinese keris developed its own identity, separate to the Javanese; bigger, different ricikan... though some things remained the same (such as pamor?).
Hope I didn't murky the waters.

cheers.

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 09:34 AM

Yes, it is frequently noted in the literature that a keris was a weapon of last resort, however, the wedung is not a weapon, the wedung is a badge of rank , symbolising the willingness of the bearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord. Its wear is restricted to certain classes of people within the keraton hierarchy.

I know of no "traditional" belief in Jawa either at the present time, or appearing in literary works of the past, that requires a keris to draw blood once removed from its wrongko. I have read this in various popular works written by authors based in western societies, but I do not have any idea where this "traditional belief" may have come from. Nor am I aware of any beliefs of a keris "turning on" its owner because of the owner`s failure to draw blood with it. I find it extremely difficult to believe that these stories originated from any source within the Javanese cultural framework.

Amuck means to attack blindly.
The presence of a keris is not necessary for amuck to occur.

I have witnessed several cases of a person running amuck, in one case the person concerned had a bottle as a weapon. This incident occurred in Kuta, in Bali, and was brought on by insults delivered by a couple of young western tourists. The Indonesian man snapped and attacked everybody in sight with what he had in his hand, which was a soft drink bottle. Other Indonesians caught him and held him down until he came out of his rage, and when he had regained his senses he appeared to have no recollection of what had happened.

In another case the person concerned had no weapon at all.

In all cases that I have witnessed, or that I know of, the people were not really conscious of their actions.

Amuk and the phrase "babi buta", and the word "nekad" are not synonymous with "amuk".

Babi buta, or babi membuta means to rage blindly.

Nekad is a variation of nekat which simply means "determined to accomplish something no matter what"

Medical opinion seems to be that the state of amuk is brought as a semi automatic response to social pressures.

There is another form of amuk, where a person dedicates his life--- or perhaps more correctly his death--- to the destruction of enemies, however, although this does have some similarities to that which we would normally term "amuk" I personally do not like the term amuk applied to this self sacrificial action.

My readings of the biographies of several Javanese princes, and of practices within the Javanese keratons in the late colonial period indicate that Javanese princes were educated in European martial and social skills, and Javanese cultural and social skills. I have not read of a Javanese prince being taught silat, however, they were taught dance, and a number of classical dances require the keris to be used.

Lei Shen Dao · 7th September 2006, 07:50 PM

Hi guys

From what I know keris was a lot in use as a weapon in the island of Madura.
Maduranese people were mostly poor in the contrary with the Javanese people, so evrything they made (from the material to the spiritual) was very strong and ready for use.

This is the case in many Maduranese keris that I have seen (I speak only for the old ones) and in fact the only Maduranese I have in my possesion (the one in my avatar

) indicates exactly this as a fact. It is a little longer from the original Javanese keris, very strong construction, and has a kind of smooth "nerve" all the way the blade something that you never see for example in a Tuban tilam upih. You just know that it was a weapon a long time ago the same time you'll touch it.

Maduranese people were (and in many cases still are) mostly warriors and everything they made was strong and practical. Their keris are in many cases havier and very solid and combact.

Of cource many keris are not weapons (like the one I posted some time ago in the "Raja Gundala thread"), are very delicate, soft and light constracted.

In all I know, the knife is mostly a weapon of surprise attack and it is a stubbing weapon. No nead to cut with it or to be sharp for that reason. Most combat knives all around the world are for stubbing purposes.

The keris in generall seems not to be a weapon for war, but this is not applied to all the blades.

Excuse my bad English (but I am in a harry for now)...

Take care

Pusaka · 8th September 2006, 12:29 AM

In some systems of silat they learn how to use a keris for fighting. I have also seen Pendekar S Benitez performing a keris fighting jurus but can’t locate the video at the moment. As far as I know his system originates from Java from guru Ma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQduCg2gbzY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X9tv...elated&search=

Rick · 8th September 2006, 12:45 AM

Vid #1This looks like Wayang inspired stuff to me .

The second vid looks like standard defense against any edged weapon.
Too much slashing involved with what seems to me a stabbing weapon.

Just my opinion as seen through uneducated Western eyes .

8th September 2006, 12:29 AM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In some systems of silat they learn how to use a keris for fighting. I have also seen Pendekar S Benitez performing a keris fighting jurus but can’t locate the video at the moment. As far as I know his system originates from Java from guru Ma. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQduCg2gbzY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X9tv...elated&search= Last edited by Pusaka; 8th September 2006 at 12:43 AM.

7th September 2006, 05:49 AM	#1
Bambang Irian Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	In Javanesee concept basically keris is not weapons for fighting, but it is a symbol of live. Each racikan has a symbol of philosopy. Bambang Irian

7th September 2006, 06:29 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Yes, I agree with you Pak Bambang,in Jawa today the keris is not regarded as a weapon, but it is important to realise that this view of the keris is a comparatively recent one, that appears to have developed during possibly only the last 200 years or so, with an increased emphasis during possibly the last 50 years. If we examine old Javanese literature, and old historical records, we find that the keris was most definitely used as a weapon in times past. This is the reason that I say that when we consider the keris, we must consider it within a defined period of time.

7th September 2006, 08:14 AM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day All, My belief is that to understand something, one has to try and appreciate its environment. No doubt, in my mind, that the keris was originally designed as a weapon. However, through the belief systems of the time, it developed into a status/ rank/wealth symbol as well as that of mystical power complete with 'pakem' (protocol) etc. Consequently, it became the weapon of last resort, as any respectable male would always have one on him (now merely carried and revered as a symbol/talisman; normally alongside a weapon, such as a wedung). This gave rise to the term 'ngamuk/amuk/amok'; the person not having a 'weapon' to use, is forced to use his keris, as a last resort. However, traditional belief is that a keris, once unsheathed, may not return to its sheath without tasting blood. Thus the person is committed to draw blood. Should he fail, then the keris will turn on him. So 'ngamuk' became synonymous with 'babi-buta' and 'nekad'; loosely tranlates to suicidal blind fury. As for the martial arts.... penca-silat adopts whatever is at hand to use as a weapon. That is why there is no 'standard' weapon(s) of penca-silat. In the case of the Javanese prince; case in point, he only demonstrated with what he had handy at the time ... a keris ( the same moves would have been just as applicable to the bedog/golok (machete)... much favoured by the West Java penca-silat artists, as that was the most common implement worn on a daily basis). WRT the Balinese keris... a lot of Javanese fled to Bali under the onslaught of Islamisation, so they could retain their Hindu systems. I think that it was around this period that the Balinese keris developed its own identity, separate to the Javanese; bigger, different ricikan... though some things remained the same (such as pamor?). Hope I didn't murky the waters. cheers.

7th September 2006, 09:34 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Yes, it is frequently noted in the literature that a keris was a weapon of last resort, however, the wedung is not a weapon, the wedung is a badge of rank , symbolising the willingness of the bearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord. Its wear is restricted to certain classes of people within the keraton hierarchy. I know of no "traditional" belief in Jawa either at the present time, or appearing in literary works of the past, that requires a keris to draw blood once removed from its wrongko. I have read this in various popular works written by authors based in western societies, but I do not have any idea where this "traditional belief" may have come from. Nor am I aware of any beliefs of a keris "turning on" its owner because of the owner`s failure to draw blood with it. I find it extremely difficult to believe that these stories originated from any source within the Javanese cultural framework. Amuck means to attack blindly. The presence of a keris is not necessary for amuck to occur. I have witnessed several cases of a person running amuck, in one case the person concerned had a bottle as a weapon. This incident occurred in Kuta, in Bali, and was brought on by insults delivered by a couple of young western tourists. The Indonesian man snapped and attacked everybody in sight with what he had in his hand, which was a soft drink bottle. Other Indonesians caught him and held him down until he came out of his rage, and when he had regained his senses he appeared to have no recollection of what had happened. In another case the person concerned had no weapon at all. In all cases that I have witnessed, or that I know of, the people were not really conscious of their actions. Amuk and the phrase "babi buta", and the word "nekad" are not synonymous with "amuk". Babi buta, or babi membuta means to rage blindly. Nekad is a variation of nekat which simply means "determined to accomplish something no matter what" Medical opinion seems to be that the state of amuk is brought as a semi automatic response to social pressures. There is another form of amuk, where a person dedicates his life--- or perhaps more correctly his death--- to the destruction of enemies, however, although this does have some similarities to that which we would normally term "amuk" I personally do not like the term amuk applied to this self sacrificial action. My readings of the biographies of several Javanese princes, and of practices within the Javanese keratons in the late colonial period indicate that Javanese princes were educated in European martial and social skills, and Javanese cultural and social skills. I have not read of a Javanese prince being taught silat, however, they were taught dance, and a number of classical dances require the keris to be used.

7th September 2006, 07:50 PM	#5
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Hi guys From what I know keris was a lot in use as a weapon in the island of Madura. Maduranese people were mostly poor in the contrary with the Javanese people, so evrything they made (from the material to the spiritual) was very strong and ready for use. This is the case in many Maduranese keris that I have seen (I speak only for the old ones) and in fact the only Maduranese I have in my possesion (the one in my avatar ) indicates exactly this as a fact. It is a little longer from the original Javanese keris, very strong construction, and has a kind of smooth "nerve" all the way the blade something that you never see for example in a Tuban tilam upih. You just know that it was a weapon a long time ago the same time you'll touch it. Maduranese people were (and in many cases still are) mostly warriors and everything they made was strong and practical. Their keris are in many cases havier and very solid and combact. Of cource many keris are not weapons (like the one I posted some time ago in the "Raja Gundala thread"), are very delicate, soft and light constracted. In all I know, the knife is mostly a weapon of surprise attack and it is a stubbing weapon. No nead to cut with it or to be sharp for that reason. Most combat knives all around the world are for stubbing purposes. The keris in generall seems not to be a weapon for war, but this is not applied to all the blades. Excuse my bad English (but I am in a harry for now)... Take care

8th September 2006, 12:45 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Vid #1This looks like Wayang inspired stuff to me . The second vid looks like standard defense against any edged weapon. Too much slashing involved with what seems to me a stabbing weapon. Just my opinion as seen through uneducated Western eyes .