Origin of the keris

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 05:02 AM

Yep. The D70 is on the right.

They were both given pretty much the same photoshop treatment, and the crop depended on what I wanted in. I`m playing with the idea of getting a compact for when I need something just acceptable in a hurry, and for carrying around, because a bag full of Nikon stuff is just too inconvenient.I borrowed my son`s Sony and shot a few bits and pieces with it. Will do a serious test as soon as I get a chance.

But anyway David, you were pressed, and even at this size, and seeing them after they`d been massaged you could pick the difference. Straight out of the camera the difference is enormous.

If I look at these on my own screen, and full size, to me, the difference is chalk and cheese.

The Sony is just a snapshot camera , I reckon. Happy snaps, the occasional old building or dust laden sunset---it'll produce wonderful stuff.

Up close and personal---it sucks.

David · 7th September 2006, 03:15 PM

Cool....do i win a cigar?

Everyone should also keep in mind that different digital cameras are going to have different defaults and custom settings as they apply to sharpness, contrast, hue and tone. For instance, digital point & shoots tend to lean towards over sharpened images straight out of the camera as the makers assume that those using these cameras are less likely to do any post-production work. If you process both these images exactly the same you may find that less sharpening is needed on the P&S camera than the D70. The same will be true of other settings. The D70 should have custom settings that allow you greater in camera control than the P&S.

Battara · 7th September 2006, 07:35 PM

Since I am not a camera buff (nor do I buff cameras

) I will comment on the keris at hand. I love the hilt of the first one - looks like bronze to me. the other one I may lean also toward new being treated - notice that the dapur is not affected but would have been if corroded by time. The blade is simply too clean IMHO, especially for truly corroded bronze (in the ground no less

).

Also, I wonder if the "princess" in the first hilt is a naga spirit.

Marcokeris · 10th January 2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Since I am not a camera buff (nor do I buff cameras

) I will comment on the keris at hand. I love the hilt of the first one - looks like bronze to me. the other one I may lean also toward new being treated - notice that the dapur is not affected but would have been if corroded by time. The blade is simply too clean IMHO, especially for truly corroded bronze (in the ground no less

).

Also, I wonder if the "princess" in the first hilt is a naga spirit.

During my last trip in Yogya i found another similar hilt. The seller told me it comes undergrownd near Klanten (between Yogya and Solo). This is the hilt. Have any kerisfriends seen another like this? Can anyone help me to understand? Is this a keris hilt or another hilt?

A. G. Maisey · 10th January 2008, 09:09 PM

Marco, during the 1980's there were a lot metal handles coming out of East Jawa that bore similarities to the one you have posted a pic of. I actually met one of the fellows involved in their manufacture when he was making a delivery to Solo. They did not make only handles, but all sorts of things from the bronze period. I do not mean "bronze age", I mean the period when bronze was still being made and used. I later saw a lot of these little statuettes and mirrors and bells offered in very respectable auction houses, and upmarket antique shops in Sydney, as genuine.

They used various material, sometimes it was just patinated brass, but for the better, more expensive pieces they used genuine bronze that had been reclaimed from old gongs.The good pieces were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the real thing, the patination, adhering deposits, everything, was perfect. Possibly an expert in bronzes could pick them, but I tend to doubt even this.

These people are still producing things that are being sold in Solo and Bali, at least, however, I have not seen any handles from them for a long time, maybe ten years or more. I have never seen a handle of exactly the same pattern as the one that you have.

When considering the realities of antiquities coming out of Indonesia it always very wise to realise that if there is a market for something, Indonesia can produce it. The production of a particular ceramics manufacturer is impossible for an ordinary person to buy. Why? Because he has at least five years worth of orders to fill for antique dealers right across the world. Archaic forms of keris, such as the keris buda and similar are produced by a gentleman who lives near Malang, and are so excellent that I have almost been sucked in by them twice; only by taking the blades home and spending hours on examination was I able to come to the opinion that they were forgeries. Bronzes? Well, I've already covered those, I think.As for "Majapahit gold" :- approach with caution and be prepared to pay only normal gold price.

Marco, your handle may well be genuine, it is impossible to tell from a pic, and maybe equally impossible in the hand. Possibly your best indicator is how much you paid for it. If the cost ruined your budget for the trip, it is likely to be genuine.

A. G. Maisey · 10th January 2008, 09:12 PM

Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

Marcokeris · 11th January 2008, 12:24 PM

Thanks a lot Alan for your answer.
Also I have many unsolved doubts

I showed the first hilt to an art-tribal's seller in Milan and he said "probalby original" but, of course, for me is not enought.
But in Kerobokan (Bali) i saw years ago another similar hilt (jointed to a litlle piece of rusty corroded iron) in a shop very famous for his reliability in tribal art dealer world (I woul like to know if, in the same condition, iron and bronze are the same corrosion or a different corrosion's speed)
I found the second hilt in a home outside Yogya. The seller had a lot of nice old wood and ivory Cirebon, Tegal, Madura hits... and together the unclean bronze second hilt under discussion: his prize was the same of a honest ivory hilt (but... of course ... in all world the prize changes according to the numbers of successions an object has).
A strange matter that probably is not good for an old aged confirm is that the hilts are enourmously alike.
Thanks again and sorry for my english
Marco

Raden Usman Djogja · 14th January 2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

Pak Alan,

I think KLATEN is a town in Melby whilst CLAYTON is a town between Prambanan and Delanggu.

warm salam,
OeS

7th September 2006, 05:02 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,134	Yep. The D70 is on the right. They were both given pretty much the same photoshop treatment, and the crop depended on what I wanted in. I`m playing with the idea of getting a compact for when I need something just acceptable in a hurry, and for carrying around, because a bag full of Nikon stuff is just too inconvenient.I borrowed my son`s Sony and shot a few bits and pieces with it. Will do a serious test as soon as I get a chance. But anyway David, you were pressed, and even at this size, and seeing them after they`d been massaged you could pick the difference. Straight out of the camera the difference is enormous. If I look at these on my own screen, and full size, to me, the difference is chalk and cheese. The Sony is just a snapshot camera , I reckon. Happy snaps, the occasional old building or dust laden sunset---it'll produce wonderful stuff. Up close and personal---it sucks.

7th September 2006, 03:15 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,261	Cool....do i win a cigar? Everyone should also keep in mind that different digital cameras are going to have different defaults and custom settings as they apply to sharpness, contrast, hue and tone. For instance, digital point & shoots tend to lean towards over sharpened images straight out of the camera as the makers assume that those using these cameras are less likely to do any post-production work. If you process both these images exactly the same you may find that less sharpening is needed on the P&S camera than the D70. The same will be true of other settings. The D70 should have custom settings that allow you greater in camera control than the P&S.

7th September 2006, 07:35 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,363	Since I am not a camera buff (nor do I buff cameras ) I will comment on the keris at hand. I love the hilt of the first one - looks like bronze to me. the other one I may lean also toward new being treated - notice that the dapur is not affected but would have been if corroded by time. The blade is simply too clean IMHO, especially for truly corroded bronze (in the ground no less ). Also, I wonder if the "princess" in the first hilt is a naga spirit.

10th January 2008, 09:09 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,134	Marco, during the 1980's there were a lot metal handles coming out of East Jawa that bore similarities to the one you have posted a pic of. I actually met one of the fellows involved in their manufacture when he was making a delivery to Solo. They did not make only handles, but all sorts of things from the bronze period. I do not mean "bronze age", I mean the period when bronze was still being made and used. I later saw a lot of these little statuettes and mirrors and bells offered in very respectable auction houses, and upmarket antique shops in Sydney, as genuine. They used various material, sometimes it was just patinated brass, but for the better, more expensive pieces they used genuine bronze that had been reclaimed from old gongs.The good pieces were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the real thing, the patination, adhering deposits, everything, was perfect. Possibly an expert in bronzes could pick them, but I tend to doubt even this. These people are still producing things that are being sold in Solo and Bali, at least, however, I have not seen any handles from them for a long time, maybe ten years or more. I have never seen a handle of exactly the same pattern as the one that you have. When considering the realities of antiquities coming out of Indonesia it always very wise to realise that if there is a market for something, Indonesia can produce it. The production of a particular ceramics manufacturer is impossible for an ordinary person to buy. Why? Because he has at least five years worth of orders to fill for antique dealers right across the world. Archaic forms of keris, such as the keris buda and similar are produced by a gentleman who lives near Malang, and are so excellent that I have almost been sucked in by them twice; only by taking the blades home and spending hours on examination was I able to come to the opinion that they were forgeries. Bronzes? Well, I've already covered those, I think.As for "Majapahit gold" :- approach with caution and be prepared to pay only normal gold price. Marco, your handle may well be genuine, it is impossible to tell from a pic, and maybe equally impossible in the hand. Possibly your best indicator is how much you paid for it. If the cost ruined your budget for the trip, it is likely to be genuine.

10th January 2008, 09:12 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,134	Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

11th January 2008, 12:24 PM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Thanks a lot Alan for your answer. Also I have many unsolved doubts I showed the first hilt to an art-tribal's seller in Milan and he said "probalby original" but, of course, for me is not enought. But in Kerobokan (Bali) i saw years ago another similar hilt (jointed to a litlle piece of rusty corroded iron) in a shop very famous for his reliability in tribal art dealer world (I woul like to know if, in the same condition, iron and bronze are the same corrosion or a different corrosion's speed) I found the second hilt in a home outside Yogya. The seller had a lot of nice old wood and ivory Cirebon, Tegal, Madura hits... and together the unclean bronze second hilt under discussion: his prize was the same of a honest ivory hilt (but... of course ... in all world the prize changes according to the numbers of successions an object has). A strange matter that probably is not good for an old aged confirm is that the hilts are enourmously alike. Thanks again and sorry for my english Marco