¿ YATAGAN SABER?

Yannis · 5th February 2005, 03:39 PM

Tom, as usual, you hit a point. Personally I dont care about the length of the sword as far as I feel it ok in my hand.
Talking of shaskhas my favorite sword this period is an asian type shaskha . This beauty is the one that I could choose to hold if I had to fight with swords

It has great balance and a strong blade (german I think). But before this, my favourite arm was a medium size kilij. There is a difference of 20cm (!) between them, but both have great “feeling”. I cant say the same for all my swords.

Rivkin · 5th February 2005, 03:48 PM

Afaik the other difference is that caucasian shashka is usually mounted with the hilt fully exposed and essentially bigger in diameter than the scabbard's opening.

"Asian" shashkas usually have extremely large scabbard's opening, so the hilt goes partially into the scabbard.

Just my 2c.

Yannis · 5th February 2005, 07:29 PM

I thought it was quite the opposite. The most shaskhas have the kind of scabbard you describe but some of the so called “asian” have the hilt bigger than the scabbard, so they overlap it. Like the shaskha I show here.

Also my opinion is that it is better to call this type “Islamic” than “asian”, because it comes from the muslim tribes of Caucasus. So we can have a difference from Carlos shaskha that is “central asian”.

I wish I read more opinions here.

ariel · 6th February 2005, 11:37 PM

Lebedynsky calls it "pseudo-shashka".
As a part of the Great Game, the Russians started their conquest of the Central Asia (Bukhara, Khokand, Khwarism, Samarkand etc) sometimes in the middle third of the 19th century. They deployed regular army units and Cossack troops. That is when the locals were first acquainted with the Cossack Shashkas and started copying it. However, they still had their local motives preserved: the bolster and the blade sunk deep into the scabbard are direct descendants of the Khyber Knife (Salawar Yataghan). Thus, the Caucasian (handle outside) and the Asian (sunk handle) types were defined as such by the Russian military and the terms are of later origin.
Whereas Caucasian Shashkas had relatively short and light blades, the Central Asian often had very large and heavy ones. Another difference is the handle: Caucasian have an almost cylindrical body of the handle , with equal width throughout. Asian shashkas have relatively thin handle close to the blade and it widens toward the eared pommel.
Subsequently, Caucasian swordmakers went to Bukhara (already under the Russian control) and there was an active exchange of techniques: that is whence enameling came to the Caucasus.

Yannis · 7th February 2005, 08:40 AM

Ariel

I am confused now. I have no access to Lebedynsky but I checked Stone and Tirri, not much info. Astvacaturyan has my type of shashka in Daghestan chapter, that means the asian part of caucasus. That's why I call it "islamic"

I was lucky to see many shashkas lately. The majority of them was the type "hilt in the scabbard". But some of these had Hungarian or German blades and certainly all of them had heavier blades than the Central Asian shashkas (like Carlos) the I have seen and hold.

I agree that in Russian Imperial times the exchange of styles was common. I wish once more Astvacaturyan's book was translated in a language I can read.

ariel · 7th February 2005, 04:13 PM

The blades:
I am talking about locally made blades. Caucasians (Circassians and Daghestani/Chechens) liked their shashka ("big knife" is a literal meaning) to be very light. Uzbeks and the rest of the Central Asians essentially transplanted a local blade (what we usually see as Tulwars, Pulouars etc) onto a "caucasian" handle.
Caucasian shashkas used a lot of Europeaan or Persian blades, but they were all pretty light.
The handle:
The definition "asian" has nothing to do with Daghestan being nominally in Asia (just like Circassia , the cradle of Shashkas, is nominally in Europe). We are talking about tiny distances and the Europe/Asia divide being artificially imposed by the European cartographers. Georgians still view themselves (or would like to be viewed!) as the Easternmost Mediterranean nation.
The distinction between "caucasian" and "asian" handles was made by the Russian military around 1880s, when the Central Asian shashkas became known and even popular among the officers ordering their equipment in the multitude of commercial workshops around the Caucasus and exercising wide and free choice of the style they wanted. Thus, similar blades of whatever origin could have sported either type of the handle. Later the styles became officially regimented by the ministerial regulations but we start talking here about mass-produced, regulation sabers and I am not very interested in those...
"Islamic" or "Asian":
Both Central Asians and Chechens are Muslim; thus calling the style Islamic would not help. Caucasian and Asian (perhaps, Central Asian would, indeed be better?) are very adequate and precise definitions.

ariel · 7th February 2005, 04:20 PM

Having unloaded my 5 cents worth of knowledge on Shashkas, I'd like to ask Carlos: how long is the blade? Looks unusually short to me. Is it a child's sword? Any markings on the blade? Very pretty weapon, congratulations!

5th February 2005, 03:39 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Tom, as usual, you hit a point. Personally I dont care about the length of the sword as far as I feel it ok in my hand. Talking of shaskhas my favorite sword this period is an asian type shaskha . This beauty is the one that I could choose to hold if I had to fight with swords It has great balance and a strong blade (german I think). But before this, my favourite arm was a medium size kilij. There is a difference of 20cm (!) between them, but both have great “feeling”. I cant say the same for all my swords. Attached Images

5th February 2005, 03:48 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Afaik the other difference is that caucasian shashka is usually mounted with the hilt fully exposed and essentially bigger in diameter than the scabbard's opening. "Asian" shashkas usually have extremely large scabbard's opening, so the hilt goes partially into the scabbard. Just my 2c.

5th February 2005, 07:29 PM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I thought it was quite the opposite. The most shaskhas have the kind of scabbard you describe but some of the so called “asian” have the hilt bigger than the scabbard, so they overlap it. Like the shaskha I show here. Also my opinion is that it is better to call this type “Islamic” than “asian”, because it comes from the muslim tribes of Caucasus. So we can have a difference from Carlos shaskha that is “central asian”. I wish I read more opinions here.

6th February 2005, 11:37 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Lebedynsky calls it "pseudo-shashka". As a part of the Great Game, the Russians started their conquest of the Central Asia (Bukhara, Khokand, Khwarism, Samarkand etc) sometimes in the middle third of the 19th century. They deployed regular army units and Cossack troops. That is when the locals were first acquainted with the Cossack Shashkas and started copying it. However, they still had their local motives preserved: the bolster and the blade sunk deep into the scabbard are direct descendants of the Khyber Knife (Salawar Yataghan). Thus, the Caucasian (handle outside) and the Asian (sunk handle) types were defined as such by the Russian military and the terms are of later origin. Whereas Caucasian Shashkas had relatively short and light blades, the Central Asian often had very large and heavy ones. Another difference is the handle: Caucasian have an almost cylindrical body of the handle , with equal width throughout. Asian shashkas have relatively thin handle close to the blade and it widens toward the eared pommel. Subsequently, Caucasian swordmakers went to Bukhara (already under the Russian control) and there was an active exchange of techniques: that is whence enameling came to the Caucasus.

7th February 2005, 08:40 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Ariel I am confused now. I have no access to Lebedynsky but I checked Stone and Tirri, not much info. Astvacaturyan has my type of shashka in Daghestan chapter, that means the asian part of caucasus. That's why I call it "islamic" I was lucky to see many shashkas lately. The majority of them was the type "hilt in the scabbard". But some of these had Hungarian or German blades and certainly all of them had heavier blades than the Central Asian shashkas (like Carlos) the I have seen and hold. I agree that in Russian Imperial times the exchange of styles was common. I wish once more Astvacaturyan's book was translated in a language I can read.

7th February 2005, 04:13 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blades: I am talking about locally made blades. Caucasians (Circassians and Daghestani/Chechens) liked their shashka ("big knife" is a literal meaning) to be very light. Uzbeks and the rest of the Central Asians essentially transplanted a local blade (what we usually see as Tulwars, Pulouars etc) onto a "caucasian" handle. Caucasian shashkas used a lot of Europeaan or Persian blades, but they were all pretty light. The handle: The definition "asian" has nothing to do with Daghestan being nominally in Asia (just like Circassia , the cradle of Shashkas, is nominally in Europe). We are talking about tiny distances and the Europe/Asia divide being artificially imposed by the European cartographers. Georgians still view themselves (or would like to be viewed!) as the Easternmost Mediterranean nation. The distinction between "caucasian" and "asian" handles was made by the Russian military around 1880s, when the Central Asian shashkas became known and even popular among the officers ordering their equipment in the multitude of commercial workshops around the Caucasus and exercising wide and free choice of the style they wanted. Thus, similar blades of whatever origin could have sported either type of the handle. Later the styles became officially regimented by the ministerial regulations but we start talking here about mass-produced, regulation sabers and I am not very interested in those... "Islamic" or "Asian": Both Central Asians and Chechens are Muslim; thus calling the style Islamic would not help. Caucasian and Asian (perhaps, Central Asian would, indeed be better?) are very adequate and precise definitions.

7th February 2005, 04:20 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Having unloaded my 5 cents worth of knowledge on Shashkas, I'd like to ask Carlos: how long is the blade? Looks unusually short to me. Is it a child's sword? Any markings on the blade? Very pretty weapon, congratulations!