Help With Dagger ID

Robert · 3rd February 2005, 12:51 AM

Hi everyone!
I had this posted at SFI but didn't get much response so I thought I'd try here for help. This is the newest addition to my collection.
Blade length is 11-5/8 inches
Grip is 4-1/4 inches
Blade is 1/4 inch thick and 1-1/2 inches wide at the guard.
The blade appears to be of twisted composite construction.
Both edges of the blade are sharpened from the tip to the guard.
Very heavily bladed, a serious weapon. I believe this dagger is
from the Philippines about the end of the 1800s. If anyone has
any ideas or comments on the age or origins of this piece please
post them. Thanks.

Robert · 3rd February 2005, 04:47 AM

Here's a closer picture of the hilt. Grip is a dark hardwood with brass guard and fitting.

Ian · 3rd February 2005, 04:50 AM

I agree it looks like a Philippine dagger, probably from Luzon or at least the northern part of the country because of the full tang construction which is peened over the end of the handle. Its appearance suggests some age, so 19th C. is not out of the question.

Robert · 3rd February 2005, 06:05 AM

Ian,
Thanks for the input. Here's a few more if anyone would like to comment on them.

Rick · 3rd February 2005, 03:40 PM

Hi Robert ,

I'd like to see close up pics of the twisted pattern blade ; I've got some doubts about that .

Also I'd love to see more detailed pictures of the third knife from the bottom , the one with the wavy blade .

tom hyle · 3rd February 2005, 03:45 PM

Looks like a bunch of late 19th/early 20th Luzon work. Nice collection. The top two pieces I'm less sure of, especially the top one; without closer pics or more info they could be otherwise Spanish colonial, (or even broader; I've even seen Japanese swords hilted in these styles) but they're probably from Luzon or a very neighboring island. Is the blade bent on the top sword, or was it made with that curvature? Can you tell? These lowland Luzon pieces have a definite European influence, with some of them even being difficult to distinguish from actual European swords and daggers.

Robert · 4th February 2005, 12:38 AM

Rick,
Here are a couple of closer pictures of the blade. I will post more pictures of the other sword later tonight.
Tom,
The top swords blade is made that way. I have been told that the two top swords and the bottom left dagger are Spanish Colonial pieces. At this point I'm just looking for other peoples input on them. If there are any you want closer pictures of just say which ones you want and I will do my best to post them. Thank you both for your input.

Rick · 4th February 2005, 12:50 AM

Thanks Robert , first I'd suggest that the spiral patterning you see is the result of storage rather than pattern welding . In other words the steel has a blotchy patina .

I'd place these pieces as being from the Philippine Revolutionary era (Span Am War) for the most part .
I think more than one island (or at least province) is represented here .

Some other examples :

Robert · 4th February 2005, 01:00 AM

Blade lenth is 17-1/2 inches.
Blade width at guard is 1-3/8 inches.
Blade at widest point is 1-5/8 inches.
Grip lenth is 4-3/4 inches long.
Grip is horn with brass fittings.
I hope this helps.

Rick · 4th February 2005, 01:11 AM

I like that one best of the bunch .

Ten waves , not Moro .

Robert · 4th February 2005, 01:21 AM

Yea, this one and the one right above it are my favorites.

Do you mave any guesses as to who made it?

tom hyle · 4th February 2005, 01:33 AM

Let's be clear; they're all Spanish Colonial peices; native-made with a strong European influence. That recurve at the very tip is usually PI, though I've seen a probably S American piece or two with it, too. Very peculiar on a rapier-ish blade; more usually seen on cutting swords. Agreed that some of these pieces could well be from the Visayan region; most especially the bottom two and the shortsword with only one ferule in the group picture. On the Spanish influenced stuff it seems to me the region of production is less clear than on "true" or "pure" Phillipino work.

Robert · 4th February 2005, 03:54 PM

Tom,
Here are some closer pictures of the second sword. I will post closer pictures of the first one as soon as my camera batteries recharge.

Blade lenth is 21-3/16 inches.
Blade width is 1-1/2 inches and 1/4 inch thich.
Grip is horn.
Guard and fittings are steel.

Robert · 4th February 2005, 06:11 PM

OK,
Here is the top sword.

Grip is a hard dark wood.
Grip length is 4-3/4 inches.
Guard and fitting are steel (rear fitting is missing).
Blade length is 26-5/8 inches.
Blade width at guard is 7/8 inch and is 3/16 inches thick.

Robert · 11th February 2005, 06:22 AM

Last one.

3rd February 2005, 12:51 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Help With Dagger ID Hi everyone! I had this posted at SFI but didn't get much response so I thought I'd try here for help. This is the newest addition to my collection. Blade length is 11-5/8 inches Grip is 4-1/4 inches Blade is 1/4 inch thick and 1-1/2 inches wide at the guard. The blade appears to be of twisted composite construction. Both edges of the blade are sharpened from the tip to the guard. Very heavily bladed, a serious weapon. I believe this dagger is from the Philippines about the end of the 1800s. If anyone has any ideas or comments on the age or origins of this piece please post them. Thanks. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 3rd February 2005 at 04:39 AM.

3rd February 2005, 04:47 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here's a closer picture of the hilt. Grip is a dark hardwood with brass guard and fitting. Attached Images

3rd February 2005, 04:50 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,253	Philippines knife I agree it looks like a Philippine dagger, probably from Luzon or at least the northern part of the country because of the full tang construction which is peened over the end of the handle. Its appearance suggests some age, so 19th C. is not out of the question.

3rd February 2005, 06:05 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thanks for the input. Here's a few more if anyone would like to comment on them. Attached Images

4th February 2005, 12:38 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Rick, Here are a couple of closer pictures of the blade. I will post more pictures of the other sword later tonight. Tom, The top swords blade is made that way. I have been told that the two top swords and the bottom left dagger are Spanish Colonial pieces. At this point I'm just looking for other peoples input on them. If there are any you want closer pictures of just say which ones you want and I will do my best to post them. Thank you both for your input. Attached Images

3rd February 2005, 03:40 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Hi Robert , I'd like to see close up pics of the twisted pattern blade ; I've got some doubts about that . Also I'd love to see more detailed pictures of the third knife from the bottom , the one with the wavy blade .

3rd February 2005, 03:45 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Looks like a bunch of late 19th/early 20th Luzon work. Nice collection. The top two pieces I'm less sure of, especially the top one; without closer pics or more info they could be otherwise Spanish colonial, (or even broader; I've even seen Japanese swords hilted in these styles) but they're probably from Luzon or a very neighboring island. Is the blade bent on the top sword, or was it made with that curvature? Can you tell? These lowland Luzon pieces have a definite European influence, with some of them even being difficult to distinguish from actual European swords and daggers.

4th February 2005, 12:50 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Thanks Robert , first I'd suggest that the spiral patterning you see is the result of storage rather than pattern welding . In other words the steel has a blotchy patina . I'd place these pieces as being from the Philippine Revolutionary era (Span Am War) for the most part . I think more than one island (or at least province) is represented here . Some other examples :

4th February 2005, 01:00 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Blade lenth is 17-1/2 inches. Blade width at guard is 1-3/8 inches. Blade at widest point is 1-5/8 inches. Grip lenth is 4-3/4 inches long. Grip is horn with brass fittings. I hope this helps. Attached Images

4th February 2005, 01:11 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	I like that one best of the bunch . Ten waves , not Moro .

4th February 2005, 01:21 AM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yea, this one and the one right above it are my favorites. Do you mave any guesses as to who made it?

4th February 2005, 01:33 AM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Let's be clear; they're all Spanish Colonial peices; native-made with a strong European influence. That recurve at the very tip is usually PI, though I've seen a probably S American piece or two with it, too. Very peculiar on a rapier-ish blade; more usually seen on cutting swords. Agreed that some of these pieces could well be from the Visayan region; most especially the bottom two and the shortsword with only one ferule in the group picture. On the Spanish influenced stuff it seems to me the region of production is less clear than on "true" or "pure" Phillipino work.

4th February 2005, 03:54 PM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tom, Here are some closer pictures of the second sword. I will post closer pictures of the first one as soon as my camera batteries recharge. Blade lenth is 21-3/16 inches. Blade width is 1-1/2 inches and 1/4 inch thich. Grip is horn. Guard and fittings are steel. Attached Images

4th February 2005, 06:11 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, Here is the top sword. Grip is a hard dark wood. Grip length is 4-3/4 inches. Guard and fitting are steel (rear fitting is missing). Blade length is 26-5/8 inches. Blade width at guard is 7/8 inch and is 3/16 inches thick. Attached Images

11th February 2005, 06:22 AM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Last one. Attached Images