A Portugese Question

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2006, 12:50 AM

Thank you for the information you have already provided, Fernando.

I know nothing of Portugese, but some years ago I had friend who was involved in research of Portugese sonnets from this period of time, and I recall he used word lists that contained words not found in modern Portugese. I thought that perhaps there may have been a Portugese equivalent to Middle English, or even Old English.

My idea on the possiblity of a Portugese root for this bayonet was a fairly long shot, but my approach to any question such as this is to look at everything, no matter how silly or remote a possibility may seem. If we can throw away the Portugese possibility, that is as good a result as being able to confirm a Portugese possibility, because it reduces the possible origins.

Don`t inconvenience yourself with this matter, but if you are able to follow through without a great deal of difficulty, it would be useful for us, I am sure.

RobT · 31st July 2006, 04:14 AM

Hi All,
Much like the parlor game of telephone, perhaps the key lies neither in Portugese nor in Indonesian but in what the Indonesians thought they heard the Portugese say. For example, the currently correct Beijing is a far cry from the Peking I learned in grade school. To get even closer to home (for those of us that count English as a first language) compare what the Anglo Saxons made of the French they were forced to adopt to the original French. We as blade collectors can listen to khanjar/hanger and saifr/sabre/saber.
Sincerely,
RobT

fernando · 31st July 2006, 07:29 PM

Hi RobT
Either that or what they call "transvocalization".
These are nearly all the Portuguese terms absorved in Indonesian:
armada - fleet (Port. armada)
beranda - veranda (Port. varanda)
biola - violin (Port. viola)
boneka - doll (Port. boneca)
gereja - church (Port. igreja)
jendela - window (Port. janela)
keju - cheese (Port. queijo)
kemeja - shirt (Port. camisa)
kereta - chariot/car ( Port. carro, carreta )
lemari - closet (cognate with English armoury. Port. armario) Portuguese
meja - table (Port. mesa)
mentega - butter (Port. manteiga)
minggu - Sunday (Port. Domingo)
sepatu - shoe (Port. sapato)
serdadu - army (Port. soldado)
tempo - time (Port. tempo)
terigu - flour (Port. trigo)
solusi - solution ( Port. solução )
topik - topic ( Port. tópico ).
We also have habits left in Java, but not in the subject naming; their "Kronkonk", a still used folk musical style, is partly based on the Portuguese Fado.
I have been ( undeeply ) through the Epics and Cronicles of the Discoveries Period, and am still unable to associate Sangkur with the Portuguese language, even on an ancient basis.
On the other hand ...
Besides the Sangkur Temple in Bali.
In the Sunda Area of Java, there is a mountain (Gunung) called Sangkur.
There is an old Legend in Java connected to this area, where the hero is called Sangkuriang.
The "Logo" of Banjar city includes the Sangkur Mountain.
Meanning the term put to the "bayonet" already existed before this weapon showed up.
How's that for an aproach?
Kind regards
fernando

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2006, 10:38 PM

I think that`s better than good , for an approach, and a result.

I thank you most sincerely for the effort you have put into this, Fernando, which is far more than I had intended you should expend.

I think that on the basis of your research we can definitely put any Portugese association to sleep, however, with the other uses of "sangkur" you have identified as existing in Jawa, we still have the question of origin of the name.

Regarding your "kronkonk".

This is "kroncong". In Solo, where I live when I am in Jawa, it is still fairly popular, and there are a number of kroncong groups who give performances regularly.I have known many people over the years who have played this music, my own wife sang in a kroncong band for a while, and many years ago I sat in with a kroncong group and played flute over the period of one of my visits. I am aware of the Portugese roots of this music, but I did not know it was rooted in fado. I am familiar with fado, and I have not noticed a similarity between the two musical forms. What is generally given as the roots of kroncong is "16th century Portugese folk tunes".

Thanks again for the effort you have put into this.

31st July 2006, 04:14 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	telephone? Hi All, Much like the parlor game of telephone, perhaps the key lies neither in Portugese nor in Indonesian but in what the Indonesians thought they heard the Portugese say. For example, the currently correct Beijing is a far cry from the Peking I learned in grade school. To get even closer to home (for those of us that count English as a first language) compare what the Anglo Saxons made of the French they were forced to adopt to the original French. We as blade collectors can listen to khanjar/hanger and saifr/sabre/saber. Sincerely, RobT

31st July 2006, 07:29 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	telephone parlor Hi RobT Either that or what they call "transvocalization". These are nearly all the Portuguese terms absorved in Indonesian: armada - fleet (Port. armada) beranda - veranda (Port. varanda) biola - violin (Port. viola) boneka - doll (Port. boneca) gereja - church (Port. igreja) jendela - window (Port. janela) keju - cheese (Port. queijo) kemeja - shirt (Port. camisa) kereta - chariot/car ( Port. carro, carreta ) lemari - closet (cognate with English armoury. Port. armario) Portuguese meja - table (Port. mesa) mentega - butter (Port. manteiga) minggu - Sunday (Port. Domingo) sepatu - shoe (Port. sapato) serdadu - army (Port. soldado) tempo - time (Port. tempo) terigu - flour (Port. trigo) solusi - solution ( Port. solução ) topik - topic ( Port. tópico ). We also have habits left in Java, but not in the subject naming; their "Kronkonk", a still used folk musical style, is partly based on the Portuguese Fado. I have been ( undeeply ) through the Epics and Cronicles of the Discoveries Period, and am still unable to associate Sangkur with the Portuguese language, even on an ancient basis. On the other hand ... Besides the Sangkur Temple in Bali. In the Sunda Area of Java, there is a mountain (Gunung) called Sangkur. There is an old Legend in Java connected to this area, where the hero is called Sangkuriang. The "Logo" of Banjar city includes the Sangkur Mountain. Meanning the term put to the "bayonet" already existed before this weapon showed up. How's that for an aproach? Kind regards fernando

31st July 2006, 12:50 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Thank you for the information you have already provided, Fernando. I know nothing of Portugese, but some years ago I had friend who was involved in research of Portugese sonnets from this period of time, and I recall he used word lists that contained words not found in modern Portugese. I thought that perhaps there may have been a Portugese equivalent to Middle English, or even Old English. My idea on the possiblity of a Portugese root for this bayonet was a fairly long shot, but my approach to any question such as this is to look at everything, no matter how silly or remote a possibility may seem. If we can throw away the Portugese possibility, that is as good a result as being able to confirm a Portugese possibility, because it reduces the possible origins. Don`t inconvenience yourself with this matter, but if you are able to follow through without a great deal of difficulty, it would be useful for us, I am sure.

31st July 2006, 10:38 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I think that`s better than good , for an approach, and a result. I thank you most sincerely for the effort you have put into this, Fernando, which is far more than I had intended you should expend. I think that on the basis of your research we can definitely put any Portugese association to sleep, however, with the other uses of "sangkur" you have identified as existing in Jawa, we still have the question of origin of the name. Regarding your "kronkonk". This is "kroncong". In Solo, where I live when I am in Jawa, it is still fairly popular, and there are a number of kroncong groups who give performances regularly.I have known many people over the years who have played this music, my own wife sang in a kroncong band for a while, and many years ago I sat in with a kroncong group and played flute over the period of one of my visits. I am aware of the Portugese roots of this music, but I did not know it was rooted in fado. I am familiar with fado, and I have not noticed a similarity between the two musical forms. What is generally given as the roots of kroncong is "16th century Portugese folk tunes". Thanks again for the effort you have put into this.