A Portugese Question

[Marc]

Just as an historical note:

Bayonets were first developed at the very end of the 16th c. - beginning of 17th c., and, initially, as hunting implements, with the design known as "plug bayonets. They featured a handle that fitted into the firearm muzzle and a wide, double-edged, spear-like blade. See:



On the other hand, the "socket bayonet" is a late 17th. c. French invention (1670's, quoting from memory), and this is the one equipped (well, with a lot of variations) with what I understand is the kind of blade that originated this debate. For example:




I thought it might be a somewhat relevant information...

[fernando]

Let's see:
1 - XVI-XVII century Portuguese was not so different as a language, but more on the side of orthography, diphthong spellings, using either double letters or accents like the "~", leaving out some of its Galician origins. The more encrypted situation is the intrincate graphic "font" used in the manuscripts and even in early printings. They also used alternative vocables in some cases, but still available in modern dictionaries. I have samples of these situations in various 19 and 20th century editions of the Discoveries period, and also publications on my home town history from the 16th century, with frequent document transcriptions in the original writing manner.
2 - The correct spelling is Sangue, from Latin Sanguis.
( Sang is French, Sangre is Spanish and Sangue is also Italian, but with another pronunciation )
3 - It has two sylabs: San gue. You may either omit the oral sound of the "u", depending on the root word or its several derivations, but you can not abandon its use in writing. By rule, if you want to extend a word ending with consonant "G", with a sufix or a verb time starting with "E", you must use a "U" in between. Both Sangue and this rule were in practise by ( at least ) that period. I spotted this word written in 1594, as "Sãgue". Only the diphthong à alternated to "AN".
4 - Kur and Kuh are not phoneticaly Portuguese . In such a way that is dificult to guess on a Portuguese word that gave out such corruption.
As a sufix or type of extension is even more dificult, as all the available blood (sangue ) word derivations in the dictionaries, be them substantives or adjectives do not refer the direct naming of a weapon specimen, although obviously i see the logic of blood/bleed/bleeder alegories to daggers .
5 - All of the above is no more than an aproach, as it doesn't guarantee that Sangkur is not an actual Portuguese adaptation to Malay or any of the language group.
6 - I ignore the particulars of the weapon in question, but if the subject is about a so called plug bayonet style, introduced in muskets by 1685, when Portuguese influence was already declining, it is hard to beleive that they would stiill bring them over with such an impact that its local reproduction generated a language influenced term to locally name the weapon. I would say that if some weapons exist or existed with Portuguese influenced naming, as certainly in styles, by that side of the world, took place at a prior stage, like 15/16 centuries. Or better said, you do actually have Portuguese influence in Asian and African weapon models ( and probably also names ) being produced until "the other day" ( i have pictures ) but those are a repetition of an influence originated in the earliest period.
But then again, this means nothing, if indeed such corruption existed.
I will keep looking. These themes are nice to get involved with ... if you allow me
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for the information you have already provided, Fernando.

I know nothing of Portugese, but some years ago I had friend who was involved in research of Portugese sonnets from this period of time, and I recall he used word lists that contained words not found in modern Portugese. I thought that perhaps there may have been a Portugese equivalent to Middle English, or even Old English.

My idea on the possiblity of a Portugese root for this bayonet was a fairly long shot, but my approach to any question such as this is to look at everything, no matter how silly or remote a possibility may seem. If we can throw away the Portugese possibility, that is as good a result as being able to confirm a Portugese possibility, because it reduces the possible origins.

Don`t inconvenience yourself with this matter, but if you are able to follow through without a great deal of difficulty, it would be useful for us, I am sure.

[RobT]

Hi All,
Much like the parlor game of telephone, perhaps the key lies neither in Portugese nor in Indonesian but in what the Indonesians thought they heard the Portugese say. For example, the currently correct Beijing is a far cry from the Peking I learned in grade school. To get even closer to home (for those of us that count English as a first language) compare what the Anglo Saxons made of the French they were forced to adopt to the original French. We as blade collectors can listen to khanjar/hanger and saifr/sabre/saber.
Sincerely,
RobT

[fernando]

Hi RobT
Either that or what they call "transvocalization".
These are nearly all the Portuguese terms absorved in Indonesian:
armada - fleet (Port. armada)
beranda - veranda (Port. varanda)
biola - violin (Port. viola)
boneka - doll (Port. boneca)
gereja - church (Port. igreja)
jendela - window (Port. janela)
keju - cheese (Port. queijo)
kemeja - shirt (Port. camisa)
kereta - chariot/car ( Port. carro, carreta )
lemari - closet (cognate with English armoury. Port. armario) Portuguese
meja - table (Port. mesa)
mentega - butter (Port. manteiga)
minggu - Sunday (Port. Domingo)
sepatu - shoe (Port. sapato)
serdadu - army (Port. soldado)
tempo - time (Port. tempo)
terigu - flour (Port. trigo)
solusi - solution ( Port. solução )
topik - topic ( Port. tópico ).
We also have habits left in Java, but not in the subject naming; their "Kronkonk", a still used folk musical style, is partly based on the Portuguese Fado.
I have been ( undeeply ) through the Epics and Cronicles of the Discoveries Period, and am still unable to associate Sangkur with the Portuguese language, even on an ancient basis.
On the other hand ...
Besides the Sangkur Temple in Bali.
In the Sunda Area of Java, there is a mountain (Gunung) called Sangkur.
There is an old Legend in Java connected to this area, where the hero is called Sangkuriang.
The "Logo" of Banjar city includes the Sangkur Mountain.
Meanning the term put to the "bayonet" already existed before this weapon showed up.
How's that for an aproach?
Kind regards
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

I think that`s better than good , for an approach, and a result.

I thank you most sincerely for the effort you have put into this, Fernando, which is far more than I had intended you should expend.

I think that on the basis of your research we can definitely put any Portugese association to sleep, however, with the other uses of "sangkur" you have identified as existing in Jawa, we still have the question of origin of the name.

Regarding your "kronkonk".

This is "kroncong". In Solo, where I live when I am in Jawa, it is still fairly popular, and there are a number of kroncong groups who give performances regularly.I have known many people over the years who have played this music, my own wife sang in a kroncong band for a while, and many years ago I sat in with a kroncong group and played flute over the period of one of my visits. I am aware of the Portugese roots of this music, but I did not know it was rooted in fado. I am familiar with fado, and I have not noticed a similarity between the two musical forms. What is generally given as the roots of kroncong is "16th century Portugese folk tunes".

Thanks again for the effort you have put into this.