What Constitutes a Kraton Keris?

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2006, 06:03 AM

Sorry for my misunderstanding of the hand powered blower, Pak Boedhi. The type of thing you describe belongs to a later age than the ububan, certainly.

In fact, these days some smiths use broken electric blowers and power them with a strap driven by a bicycle wheel. Same sort of idea as the blower that you describe.

As for the word ububan, yes, I agree a lot of people of the present generation may not recognise this word, but that is not because of its origin, rather because it is something from a time past.

In fact, the word "ububan" has come into the Indonesian language, and is officially a Bahasa Indonesia word. At least, it is listed in Indonesian dictionaries, and Indonesian-English dictionaries, and in these is not identified as Javanese, even though "ubub" and "ububan" are Old Javanese words.

When I speak of "Old Javanese" I am speaking of the Javanese language as it was prior to the second Kingdom of Mataram.

Again, in respect of the other words---beselen, and paron---I agree, people of this generation, and most especially if from Jakarta might be a little confused by them, but only to the same extent as people on the streets of New York, or Sydney might be confused by the names of things of a time past. Present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, it just makes it a little more difficult to easily recognise.

Similarly with landasan. Landasan comes from "landas":- "base", or "substratum"; "landasan" when combined with another word can have various meanings, for instance:- "landasan kata"="proof","landasan udara"="landing strip", however, the word "landasan" used by itself has only one meaning, and that is "anvil".

In fact, the word "paron" comes from the Old Javanese "parwan" and is one of several alternative spellings in Old Javanese for this word. Zoetmulder translates paron, parwan, parean, paryen, and paren as paron and landasan.

Please forgive me for being so pedantic about this matter of word usage, however, although I am not a native speaker of Indonesian or Javanese, for about 30 years I have had close contact with smiths and pandai keris in Jawa, and have had to learn their language to communicate. Talk to me about Javanese dance, or wayang, and I do not have the vocabulary to communicate at all. As for Krama, and Krama Inggil--I just don`t want to know. My daughter speaks it to perfection ---so I have been told--- but that only happened after she got married.

Boedhi Adhitya · 26th July 2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

So why not admit that the spiritual and physical art of the empus can be rediscovered, and has? I believe that there are masters now making objects that will in the future be considered 'pusaka'. Certainly the work that I put in with an object that responds to me makes it function as a pusaka, and I feel the energy from it. I may call it by another name, but the cause and effect are the same

Yes, Mr Montino, technically and ritually, keris making process may be easily duplicated. It has not extinct yet, as some documentation on Empu Djeno Harumbrojo has been made. It is 'The Traditional Iron Knowledges' that had been lost. As some traditional book on keris wrote, there were many kind of iron, e.g. Karangkijang, Pulasani, Balitung, Kamboja, etc, which each of them may have specific 'power'. The Empu then mix these iron on certain composition, according to what 'power' he wished. It is not only about the ritual or forging technique, but also about the materials, according to traditional knowledge, of course. Until now, many keris makers still pursue on how to make greenish color exhibited by many nem-neman keris, not to mention the 'sulak ungu' (slightly purple) or ngelar glathik (greyish iron). But they far from succed, at least until now. Empu Djeno admited that he didn't master this knowledges since his father has not taught him yet before he passed away. Without this knowledges, any keris made today could only classified as handycraft, a work of art, a heirloom (if inherited by someone) or a weapon (but I doubt, since many keris maker didn't quench their works today, considering the risk), but never 'tosan aji' or 'honorable iron' in traditional senses, since no one really knew what kind of iron he forges. But perhaps, this knowledges might only a myth.

Once again thank you for your comment, Mr. Maisey. I do agree that present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, but I'm afraid more discussion will bring us to Etymology, which certainly an unproper topic in this forum

(and certainly, I'm not the one to whom someone should discuss etymology

). Just a massage for your admirable daughter, if she please, she should learn one step further, the 'Bagongan' language, which is spoken only in Keraton, until today. It is easy (if you already master the krama), but it's limited use make it very exclusive. I cannot imagine how Javanese react if a foreigner spoke it

Best regards,

boedhi adhitya

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2006, 08:10 AM

Yes, I think we`ve already wrung enough out of word useage, Pak Boedhi.

Daughter is actually step-daughter, although I was responsible for her from a very young age. She is most certainly not a bule, not even half a bule. She married into an old aristocratic family, and was forced to learn Krama and Krama Inggil just to communicate within the family. This family now have very little to do with the Surakarta Kraton, for reasons of their own.

Pangeran Datu · 27th November 2006, 06:34 AM

Sampurasuuunnn ...

Sorry, wrong placement

Amit munduuurrr ...

Kiai Carita · 27th November 2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

..... Just a massage for your admirable daughter, if she please, she should learn one step further, the 'Bagongan' language, which is spoken only in Keraton, until today. It is easy (if you already master the krama), but it's limited use make it very exclusive. I cannot imagine how Javanese react if a foreigner spoke it

Best regards,

boedhi adhitya

Salam perkerisan,

Just to clarify, Bagongan language is only used inside the Yogyakarta Kraton and it is not any easier to learn if you know krama inggil because it uses a whole different vocabulary. It is an egalitarian language with no levels like Krama - Ngoko, a royal version of the Samin dialect from around Bojanegara.

A very informative thread.

Salam,
Bram.

Pangeran Datu · 27th November 2006, 09:52 PM

Sampurasuunn ..

Hello All,
I'm testing my ability to post pictures

I hope it works. If not, please accept my humblest apologies.

Cheers.

Amit munduurr ..

David · 27th November 2006, 10:38 PM

You appear to have been successful P.D.
Do you care to tell us where the collection in the photos is from?

Pangeran Datu · 28th November 2006, 12:42 AM

Sampurasuunn ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You appear to have been successful P.D.
Do you care to tell us where the collection in the photos is from?

Hello David,
I just happened by to check on my success or otherwise and read your query.
I believe the pictures are of part of a Display Collection at one of the palaces of the Cirebon Household. They were recently passed on to me by a member of the Household, who knew of my interest in kerises. As to in which palace; that, I don't know. (However, I suspect this Collection may be in the Karaton Kasepuhan complex, as I know that they have a museum there).
(BTW, in the polite circles of the region, the more refined term DUHUNG is used instead of KERIS, just as duwung/curiga/wangkingan is used as a more refined term by other such circles).

Regards,

Amit munduurr ..

Alam Shah · 28th November 2006, 02:59 AM

Hi Pangeran Datu,

Thanks for the pictures. The glare and the flash are affecting the overall quality of the pictures. Cannot see much unfortunately, mostly profiles of the pieces.

Would appreciate the effort for better pictures.

These looks like fine kerises. Good effort.

David · 28th November 2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

(BTW, in the polite circles of the region, the more refined term DUHUNG is used instead of KERIS, just as duwung/curiga/wangkingan is used as a more refined term by other such circles).

Thanks for the info. I do believe most of us here are very familar with these other terms for keris. There are even more than that if you delve. I hope you aren't implying that we are not being "polite" or "refined" in our use of the word keris. We are, after all, a collector's forum and the term "keris" is the most universal and immediately understood term for it. It makes the most sense to use this word and i don't think we are being disrespectful in that use, are we?

27th November 2006, 06:34 AM	#4
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Duhung Karaton Carbon Sampurasuuunnn ... Sorry, wrong placement Amit munduuurrr ... Last edited by Pangeran Datu; 27th November 2006 at 06:50 AM. Reason: Wrong placement

27th November 2006, 09:52 PM	#6
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Duhung Karaton Sampurasuunn .. Hello All, I'm testing my ability to post pictures I hope it works. If not, please accept my humblest apologies. Cheers. Amit munduurr .. Attached Images

26th July 2006, 06:03 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sorry for my misunderstanding of the hand powered blower, Pak Boedhi. The type of thing you describe belongs to a later age than the ububan, certainly. In fact, these days some smiths use broken electric blowers and power them with a strap driven by a bicycle wheel. Same sort of idea as the blower that you describe. As for the word ububan, yes, I agree a lot of people of the present generation may not recognise this word, but that is not because of its origin, rather because it is something from a time past. In fact, the word "ububan" has come into the Indonesian language, and is officially a Bahasa Indonesia word. At least, it is listed in Indonesian dictionaries, and Indonesian-English dictionaries, and in these is not identified as Javanese, even though "ubub" and "ububan" are Old Javanese words. When I speak of "Old Javanese" I am speaking of the Javanese language as it was prior to the second Kingdom of Mataram. Again, in respect of the other words---beselen, and paron---I agree, people of this generation, and most especially if from Jakarta might be a little confused by them, but only to the same extent as people on the streets of New York, or Sydney might be confused by the names of things of a time past. Present day confusion does not remove a word from a language, it just makes it a little more difficult to easily recognise. Similarly with landasan. Landasan comes from "landas":- "base", or "substratum"; "landasan" when combined with another word can have various meanings, for instance:- "landasan kata"="proof","landasan udara"="landing strip", however, the word "landasan" used by itself has only one meaning, and that is "anvil". In fact, the word "paron" comes from the Old Javanese "parwan" and is one of several alternative spellings in Old Javanese for this word. Zoetmulder translates paron, parwan, parean, paryen, and paren as paron and landasan. Please forgive me for being so pedantic about this matter of word usage, however, although I am not a native speaker of Indonesian or Javanese, for about 30 years I have had close contact with smiths and pandai keris in Jawa, and have had to learn their language to communicate. Talk to me about Javanese dance, or wayang, and I do not have the vocabulary to communicate at all. As for Krama, and Krama Inggil--I just don`t want to know. My daughter speaks it to perfection ---so I have been told--- but that only happened after she got married.

26th July 2006, 08:10 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, I think we`ve already wrung enough out of word useage, Pak Boedhi. Daughter is actually step-daughter, although I was responsible for her from a very young age. She is most certainly not a bule, not even half a bule. She married into an old aristocratic family, and was forced to learn Krama and Krama Inggil just to communicate within the family. This family now have very little to do with the Surakarta Kraton, for reasons of their own.

27th November 2006, 10:38 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	You appear to have been successful P.D. Do you care to tell us where the collection in the photos is from?

28th November 2006, 02:59 AM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Pangeran Datu, Thanks for the pictures. The glare and the flash are affecting the overall quality of the pictures. Cannot see much unfortunately, mostly profiles of the pieces. Would appreciate the effort for better pictures. These looks like fine kerises. Good effort.