Swords in the Mexican Revolution 1910-1921

[Jim McDougall]

We have often encountered the swords of Mexico here as Spanish colonial examples which evolved into those of the Republic of Mexico after its independence from Spain in 1821.
While the espada ancha (machete) was in constant use more in utility than combatively, full size swords remained in use both ceremonially and as sidearms well into the 20th century.

We know that the 'rurales' forces wore dragoon sabers and other as formed by Porfirio Diaz in the 1860s, and these men remained active well into the time of the Mexican Revolution of 1910 in the ever turbulent climate of Mexican politics of these times. While heavily armed with guns of many forms, forces always had edged weapons at hand, though seldom mentioned in accounts of actions.

That being the case, after the dramatic raid on Columbus , New Mexico in 1914 by Pancho Villa in unclear circumstances, a punitive force was ordered into Mexico led by Gen. Pershing to hunt down Villa. Then Lt. George Patton was with this force.

Patton, an avid swordsman, had developed in 1913, the pattern 1913 cavalry sword, a huge, heavy type for thrusting and mounted to the saddle.
I wondered if in view of the military climate of the time, if perhaps any of these new swords might have been carried on this expedition into Mexico.

In years of research, I found no evidence that these, or other swords were taken into Mexico by U.S. forces, until I found one reference (not cited) which stated, 'the U.S. soldiers riding into Mexico, because of heated metal burning horses flesh and frustrated by banging against horses, threw their NAPOLEONIC sabers into the desert'.
This apocryphal reference again piqued my curiosity.

The 'Napoleonic' description suggests the M1906 sabers which were like the three bar Civil War hilts of 1840 and 1860.

So my question is, is there any evidence of swords of any kind in use by US forces in actions against the Mexican forces of Pancho Villa in this time?
Here I will note that the rurales were not aligned with Villa in these times, but mentioned only in context of sword use in the time.

Pics of Rurales troops
Villa (courtesy Lee Jones)
Gen.Pershings sword a M1902 officers
The M1906 US cavalry saber
Pershings forces in Mexico (courtesy of Lee Jones)

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. Interesting question about an episode I know nothing about, so it begs the next question: are there arms and armour societies in Mexico?
You probably can't pop over and scope it out right now, but perhaps someone will know.
After all, Cathey and Hubby have one in Australia. Are they in existence world-wide? Does anyone know?
ps
Great photos.

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, thank you so much for responding here!
Actually I pretty much figured I was gonna be solo here, but it is an area in history that I have been fascinated with virtually most of my life. I grew up in southern Calif. and have spent much of the rest of my life in Texas, so the subject area of Mexican history has been inherently there.

I have never heard of an arms society in Mexico, though there are a couple of museums. There was recently a book published on Mexican swords, but it is the first I have seen in English.

I have been member of Swedish Arms Society in Stockholm for over 20 years...interestingly where I published a paper on Mexican espada anchas recently. This was perhaps a strong indicator of the overall lack of interest in Spanish colonial and Mexican arms.

There is an arms society of course in England; Denmark, and there were in Germany, Switzerland, Italy but I am not certain of their status.

Lee Jones helped me with finding these photos that were acquired by his father years ago in Texas.

My hope is to expand this topic to include some of the types of swords in use by Mexican forces in both Federalist and Constitutional forces in the Revolution. While the subject of guns used is well covered, there is little on the kinds of swords whose use carried forth into these turbulent years.

Still compiling and researching

Thank you again Keith !!!
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Patton, as a young lieutenant, was as noted, an expert swordsman and cavalryman, just prior to his participation in the Pershing punitive expedition into Mexico in 1914 pursuing Pancho Villa.

It is curious about the actual distribution of these swords and even more concerning the actual use of them. It seems that a number were actually issued to US forces in the entry into WWI in 1917, however as far as known, they were never used.
That being the case, I wonder how many of these were produced in 1913, and again, if any were indeed in use with any men who were with Patton in 1914?

As previously mentioned, an apocryphal note claims that the cavalrymen riding into Mexico with Pershing, frustrated with their 'Napoleonic sabers' tossed them into the desert. This does not seem at all to describe these huge,bowl hilt swords.

While admittedly moot, it is is simply one matter of curiosity regarding the complex, obscure, and esoteric details of these times concerning Mexico and its ever volatile political dynamics, and US reactions accordingly.

Further I hope to look into many of the swords used by the various factions participating in the Revolution, which is regarded as having begin in 1910 and unofficially raged until 1921.

[Ian]

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

Thank you for the reminder on that Ian, and well noted. It has long been understood that these militaria topics are not well placed in the contexts here, and it is indeed a fine line in this subject.

While one of the aspects of this turbulent period of Mexican history that has intrigued me was as noted, whether Pershing's forces (including Patton) might have used swords in their expedition chasing Villa.

My thinking was that in Mexico, the sword had remained nominally used in various manner, whether military or with revolutionary forces, including the ever prevalent charros. These horsemen had 'saddle swords' derived from the well known espada anchas from colonial times to the often larger versions used well into the early 20th c.
Would then lieutenant Patton, ever the cavalry swordsman have urged these troops to respond in kind, and carried swords intended for battle?

These often crude and often refurbished swords of the 19th century transcended into the early 20th with many areas and factions with Mexicans of these times, and the various types and examples present intriguing context as a topic seldom (if ever) addressed in study of this period.

The attention to the notably mass produced arms 'possibly' used by US forces here is strictly incidental, in reference to possible in kind response to the edged weapons in use nominally by Mexican forces.

I hope we can keep the discussion in these parameters.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by Ian

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

We are not exactly knee deep in activity on this site; I would have thought any interesting issues would be made more than welcome. I certainly welcome the opportunity to learn whatever and whenever possible. This material has academic value; the majority of the activity on this site teaches me nothing, which is why, I suspect, as I only attend to the European Armoury, that the life is ebbing out of the forum. Let's not suffocate what breath remains. Keep up the good work Jim.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Keith!
My main objective with this topic, as with most topics I try to discuss, is to look into historic perspectives that pertain to the weaponry in focus, as well as the contexts in which they were present.

While these forums are primarily with focus toward collectors of varied forms of weapons, the historic aspects of these arms discussed are typically and notably unattended. With collecting, everyone tends to follow 'their own drum' so to speak, that is to be attracted to certain weapon forms and areas, as well as not just typology but artistic and aesthetic values.

While we can categorize, classify and selectively itemize weapons into neatly defined boxes, history itself tends to not be so neatly classified. I always think of trying to place a finite timeline on the 'middle ages' etc.

I think the main objective here as far as the forum discourses are concerned is to avoid descending into the familiar clutter of 'militaria', and the 'issue' type of materials including the regulation forms of standard arms. While 'mass produced' swords and guns are of course nothing new, as arms producers indeed manufactured large quantities of relatively standard weapons, their vintage itself places them more in line with the historic factor. Still, the collecting phenomena dictates what aspects of these each individual finds interesting.

Getting back to this thread, while one of the questions I pondered was whether or not the M1913 Patton sword was ever involved in actions of the US cavalry in pursuit of Pancho Villa.
Meanwhile, on the Mexican side, we know that the vestigial 'culture of the sword' still remained in their ethos. The use of the machete in various forms as well as regulation style military swords was ever present in the many factions of Mexican revolutionaries during these turbulent years.

From many of the earlier espada anchas and cavalry type swords used by the Rurales, the production of various swords often termed 'saddle swords' continued. These were often inscribed with catchy 'dichos' (mottos or phrases_) on the blades, and these are the kinds of swords I am looking for.

Many of these were produced in Oaxaca and Guerrero among others.

[Jim McDougall]

As previously noted, the quasi military frontier police formed by Diaz in the 1860s, the 'Rurales' while heavily armed with revolvers and carbines, still wore cavalry type sabers (typically) through the late 19th c. and certainly into the 20th. What actual use of these took place is hard to say, as accounts of combats, battles etc. simply presume use of guns, and seldom specify if use of sword(s) was part of any action.

The cavalry sabers were typically of the three bar hilt form familiar from US Civil War examples from the M1840, M1860 types. These often had blades marked A.C., which while often presumed to mean 'armeria centrale' for the Mexico City armory, it is suggested these were the initials of Acier Colubuzier, who held the monopoly on imported swords into Mexico.

Often there are the RM stamps representing Republic of Mexico.

While these were used of course from 1870s onward, swords, like most arms in Mexico, remained in use for decades if not generations.
This example reflects the rugged condition from such years of use on the frontier, and the hilt is misshapen possibly from being trampled by a horse?
There is a centavo (date obscured) hammered onto the pommel, perhaps a good luck amulet? or simply decoration.

Note: There are numbers of three bar hilt sabers of British M1821 form which have turned up in Mexican context, usually with an oval cartouche with PDL, Luneschloss of Solingen.

[Jim McDougall]

This unusual example was acquired many years ago, along with the common presumptions which often accompany Spanish colonial swords where little tangible information was available, but fanciful lore was handy.

The complication here was that the hilt form was clearly from very early Spanish hilt styles, which reflected distinct 'Moorish' influences (the 'hand nock' in the grip familiar on Maghrebi nimchas). In this case, the typical espada ancha hilt style of the late 18th century, incorporated with hilt styles from South America and the 'Spanish Main' (Spanish Caribbean, and the ports through Central America and the South American coasts......is joined with those identified as Brazilian.

What is notable here is that the blade appears distinctively like the Brazilian cavalry sabers of 1880, supplied by Coppell of Solingen, which were in turn copied from the British M1853 cavalry sabers (thanks to Midelburgo for these ohservations, 2024).
Interestingly, other 'espadas' from Brazilian context seem to favor 'shell' guards and have the 'Moorish' hand nock.

Many arms for Mexican factions came from South America, though mostly Argentina, but of course certainly Brazil as well. These swords may be presumed from anywhere in the 'Spanish Main' (which prevailed well through 19th c) in Caribbean regions and many arms came to Mexico through the port of Vera Cruz.

The illustration is from "The Lore of Arms", William Reid, Sweden, 1976, p.124, showing the earlier Spanish (Moorish) influences with the hand nock (from nimchas etc). Corrientes was a maker from Toledo, then Madrid, 1730s (Palomares) but likely earlier.

While it would have been exciting for this sword to have been a 'pirate' sword of late 17th c. as suggested when I acquired it years ago, this hilt may still be from the early to mid 18th century as suggested by Reid (1976) and perhaps a heirloom from an old Spanish family in the colonies of New Spain. At some point it was mounted with a newer cavalry blade, and may well have become involved in the actions in the Revolution, perhaps among Zapatista forces. Obviously pure speculation but with these elements of plausibility.

[Jim McDougall]

This is another example concurring with that of previous post, again with the notable shell guard, the serpent appendage coiling around edge seems an affectation popular in hilts of S. Mexico into Central America.
The grip again, with the Moorish 'notch' hand nock from North African hilts (Maghreb).

The blade is marked LYNDON & WIGNALL, sword cutlers at Minerva Works, Fazely St. Birmingham, and in registers 1833-1839.

Swords with these type hilts have been associated with Brazil as one with inscribed blade c. 1850s is known, thus suggesting that provenance.

These again, are known to have been fancifully hawked as 'pirate cutlasses' some years ago, but of course, now that more study of these weapons has been forthcoming, it is good to know the actual identity of these.

As with the previously mentioned sword likely with Brazilian provenance, these type swords may well have entered the theaters of the Mexican Revolution in some capicity, in southern regions.

[Jim McDougall]

This is another example of the cavalry three bar hilt saber, but with heavy, shorter blade which is tempting to associate with the earlier espada anchas, but seems colloquially termed 'cutlass'. While these seem pretty uncommon, they fall into same contexts as the Civil War type cavalry sabers, and have the 'liberty hat' symbol and RM, Republic of Mexico.
It is unclear which forces might have used these, and as yet no direct connection with navy. Regardless, virtually all types of arms of these periods may be viably considered as potentially available for use by virtually any faction.

[Jim McDougall]

In addition to the previously noted types of swords, there were likely many examples of much earlier variations of swords which had been in families for generations. There also seems to have been many cases of swords either simply remounted blades, or even examples made up of composite sword elements.

In examples of swords from later in the 19th c into the 20th, there were often 'dichos' (mottos, sayings or phrases) inscribed into the blades. In some cases there were names such as on this example (from Drac2 a year ago) which is a remounted blade and fabricated hilt.
The name is Luis Padilla and SAYULA, which is a town in Jalisco (south of Guadalajara, and could be the name of an individual, or perhaps the person who fabricated the sword.

As noted earlier, whether swords were indeed used or not, they seem to have been regarded as part of the attire of men in the sense of a mark of formidable intent or authority. In remote rural areas such weapons might have been quite simple and refabricated, but still bearing the same kind of representation.

The Revolution of course had both North and South theaters, so these kinds of weapons were likely with men participating in actions in either. Though typically versions of 'saddle swords' worn by charros, they seem to have been ubiquitous before and well through the Revolution well into the 20th c.
Woodward writing on Mexican swords in 1946 interviewed many of these men noting these types of swords.

[urbanspaceman]

Keep it coming Jim; I'm learning. Just as so few are interested in or have anything to add to the Shotley Bridge history, that was the birth of the British sword industry, so too the huge theater that was the birth of over 50% of the United States. Keep it coming. Thank-you.
ps
Are we voices in the wilderness or simply off grid?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Keep it coming Jim; I'm learning. Just as so few are interested in or have anything to add to the Shotley Bridge history, that was the birth of the British sword industry, so too the huge theater that was the birth of over 50% of the United States. Keep it coming. Thank-you.
ps
Are we voices in the wilderness or simply off grid?

I know they're out there Keith..I can hear em breathing (over 11,000 views in a month! only response was yours, so thank you!). No problem though, hopefully the readers maybe learning just as we are. That was what the forums were about once, discussions and sharing information.
'Old dogs' etc.....just keep doing what we do.

[Hotspur]

Here

Watching.

I think there might be a thread elsewhere on the 1905-06 experimental cavalry and small numbers in trials out that away.

Then the 1911, predating Patton's 1913.

The thing is This room has always been, quite strictly, pre 20th century discussions.

I could link all the stuff from the USM forum but little of it would be my study. Two strokes down now, I have to rely on keywords, searches and the thoughts of others to retrace my recollections

Cheers

GC

[Hotspur]

Figure this one I adopted. A federal period blade in what looks like a Spanish briquet hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

THANK YOU GLEN!!!
Yes the 'militaria' stuff 20th c. is pretty much verboten, and I had always been curious whether the 1913 Patton had made it on Pershing's expedition chasing Villa in Mexico since Patton was with him. But that was the singular element of military swords I was interested in.

Its the many forms of swords and edged weapons in use by the factions of Revolutionaries as well as forces with Federal troops. through 1925.

This is a great example you show! and it seems there were many such unusual compositions using old briquet hilts.

This is one I found with cut down old dragoon blade from 18th c. with three bar cavalry hilt and the BRIQUET hilt. Blacksmiths in remote little towns were very creative and everything was recycled and used as required.

Thanks so much again Glen!

[Hotspur]

Neat Mine has that boat anchor feel but still seems like a 'get out of the way' for getting as job done.

Sean Scott is the guru for all things US cavalry in the 20th century. Good threads there, particularly on the Patton. There are several that used to frequent the A&M forum that are active there.

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...-spathologist/

I know a bunch watch here.

Cheers
GC

I thought I had added the peen



More editing Villa stuff and the exoerimental https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...omment=2050419

Plug in Villa and get
https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for..._topic&nodes=8

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Glen! and for the links to the sites for discussing these 20th c. military swords. These of course have their own area of historic importance and apparently quite esoteric.
Meanwhile, I think the Mexican swords and edged weapons that were carry overs from much earlier times in Mexico are still pertinent here, so these put together examples OK, as well as many of the espada anchas and old cavalry swords and cutlasses.

[Jim McDougall]

In the late 1820s well into the 19th century, Mexican cavalry swords became more familiar with European cavalry hilts, and the long straight broadsword blades that had long been mounted in the 18th-early 19th c. 'bilbo' swords were remounted into them. These blades obviously had very long working lives!

I am still seeking more pictures of these sword types worn in the Revolution by various factions and often a matter of course of personal preference.