Hungarian hussar saber Fringia

[serdar]

Hungarian hussar saber around year 1750, bearing inscription FRINGIA on the right side of the blade, in very good condition, long very nice blade, there are (i got one) more decorated examples, this one is more battle example, than show of decorated one (which were allso used in battle, just more richly decorated).

[corrado26]

congratulations, this is really a very nice sabre in a very good condition!!

[serdar]

Thank you Corrado
It realy is, it handles very nicely, and good reach.

[Jim McDougall]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=fringia

This is a magnificent example, and was anxious to see Corrado come in.....as he is the true authority in these areas of East European esoterica. It is always daunting as for many years there has been a plague of reproductions of these kinds of rare sabers, but the true age on this can be seen past the cleaning that has been done.

The FRINGIA inscription has long been a conundrum, so I wanted to link a previous discussion and hope we can look a bit into the history of these Hungarian sabers, which set the pace for European 'hussar' cavalry units.

[serdar]

Im glad you like it, il now post pictures of another one, it is more finely decorated, and has older blade, but without inscription.

[serdar]

Pictures

[serdar]

Hmm pictures came out realy lousy, and rotated.

I had before but now it is not in my collection a similar one, the whole blade was engraved in “talismanic” simbols, they looked like they were pulled out from some grimoir or magic book.
Realy beautiful engravings on both sides thru the full blade, but i sold it becouse it had rust damages, and it was to much damaged both handle and blade to keep it.

Grenadier saber sometimes do have similar simbols, and european cavalry ones.

[Jim McDougall]

Very cool. Next time you have one of these you wish to get rid of due to condition, please contact me!!!! For me I value swords for history and details like the talismanic symbols you mentioned, which makes sense as I am a historian Always hopeful for responses from others with similar interest, which was why I posted the link to FRINGIA. Very nice sabers!!!

[Jim McDougall]

The saber in post #6, for those interested, appears to be one from the cavalry unit of Prince Paul Esterhazy (Wagner, 1967, plate 36).

[serdar]

Believe me im also sadd that i sold it, and one karabela blade mounted in turkish stile, but my okp..

But im in doubt now, i got information that saber no1 fringia is 99% fake and very good one probably, soo if anyone could give me a points how can i be sure that it is or it is not a fake!?
My stronger side is ottoman, balkan and persian, in european im so so but i know there are milion fakes of karabelas, hussar, polish etc.

So if anyone can guide me how to be sure about this fringia, is it a fake or real?
Thank you.

[Jim McDougall]

As I mentioned, there have been fakes made for decades now, and very convincing. It is almost impossible to tell fakes as they've gotten so good at detail, which is why I prefer the dark, pitted and worn examples. It is easy to mask newer work if it is surrounded by over cleaned and often authentic old blades.
Having examples with provenance from museums is the best bet, and most of the items in Wagner from which he did his drawings are in museums in Vienna and Germany if I recall (he lists all the sources)and I did get a few photos of the originals.

Sorry if indeed fake, but surely remarkable reproduction.

[serdar]

Second saber i posted is 1 milion percent genuine, it is from old collection from my country, with provenance, but fringia one i took in a hurry on an auction,
And now after i spent half a day examining it im leaning toward conclusion that i fxd up, i bought in a hurry a very very good fake?

Maybe a blade is genuine, but mountings do look newish.

I will take it to institut in my town and get it checked, if it proves to be a fake, contact a auction house and get it back.

I have doubts now on a polish saber i posted yesterday, that was a private acuisition but very costly one.

From now on i will bring a team of experts, x ray machine, wizard with cristal ball and magician when im buyng polish/hungarian items.
😑

[corrado26]

could you please make fotos of the sabre in post 1 like this one?

[serdar]

Offcourse.

[serdar]

I took pictures, but after i examined the saber completely( i bought it and put it aside didnt examine it) im a shamed that i bought this fake, it is sooo good made on surface, i was sure im buyng real saber in great condition, but blade is so soft i bent it with ease, ring holders got no wear, and wood in scabbard is darkened on the entrance 10 centimeters later, it is new!
This is so emberasing, i bought something in a hurry that im not familiar with, and boy i bought it!
Every school costs.

So please be careful, examine things you buy in peace and 100%, and treat them as if they are fake, when you relax a too much and get secure that is a moment you fail and trip.

[corrado26]

As you can see, there are no signs of wear or age on the rings, which would be expected if it were an old, worn piece. Unfortunately, that is not the case, so this is probably not an original saber - as beautiful as it may be!

[serdar]

Yes, i didnt checked that when i was purchasing it, on this type of "military saber" i would definetly expect that place to be worn out, if it was caried, but why i didnt check it out is becouse saber in general looks little carryed, so there wouldnt be that much wear there, but there is no wear at all, not even 0.01 mm, as other things on saber indicate (leather on handle worn out, bruises on scabbard (metal parts), blade etc, but leather on scabbard is also in too good condition for saber that is worn, it is relatively soft leather.

But i encountered on some turkish and persian saber which are original and 100% genuine, that there is no wear in ring holders, why i realy dont know, maybe they werent caried on the body like this saber but was fixed to horse, they were caried by high ranking warior and saw little use, on the back secured by strings etc.

But it is interesting thing, so wear on place where ring is isnt allways indicator of age, and doesent wear out like on others, materials, way of carry, way of construction of ring holder etc.

But this saber is undoubtadly not genuine, somebody gave a lot of efort to make her that good looking.

[corrado26]

I looked at the photos of the FRINGIA saber again. It seems possible to me that the forger only made the then missing scabbard. At least I can't see anything on the saber based on the photos that suggests it's a fake.

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I looked at the photos of the FRINGIA saber again. It seems possible to me that the forger only made the then missing scabbard. At least I can't see anything on the saber based on the photos that suggests it's a fake.

If you look at the pictures in post #15 you see that it was easy for serdar to bend the blade and deform it permanently. I can't believe that this is possible with an original piece.
Also the patination of the brass fittings of the handle looks as artificial as that of the scabbard fittings. Regarding the authenticity of the saber, I'm not as optimistic as you are.

Regards
Robin

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I looked at the photos of the FRINGIA saber again. It seems possible to me that the forger only made the then missing scabbard. At least I can't see anything on the saber based on the photos that suggests it's a fake.

I overlooked the bended blade, now it is finally clear.

[Pertinax]

Perhaps this will help in identifying Hungarian sabres.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by serdar

But this saber is undoubtadly not genuine, somebody gave a lot of efort to make her that good looking.

Hungarian and Polish sabres and broadswords are among the most common fakes. Two years ago I wanted to buy a Hungarian broadsword from 1763, but I consulted with more knowledgeable colleagues in time. The broadsword turned out to be a fake, and I refused to buy it.

This broadsword is still hanging at auction, there are no takers.

As a rule, the first buyer pays a lot of money, then these items fall in price and hang around at auctions.

Unfortunately, here on the forum you cannot discuss items that are put up for auction, but no one forbids you from contacting participants in private messages.

Best regards,
Yuri

[serdar]

Ouuu blade is so well made, it looks real 100% BUT it bends like butter, im not egsagarating it is so soft that there is no way you could make a sirious damage with it.

I dont get it if they put so much effort in that forgery, why not make good tempered blade....?
One thing blade when struck with nail sings like its tempered but it definetly is not!

And on that other fake polish saber, blade snaped when i bent it, martensite like steel structure, some mix of steels acid aged.

It realy disgusts me that scammers and scumbags, make forgery of an antique weapons.

One needs to be very very carefull and thrust no one, but then again i dont get it several expert people looked at that polish saber and all said it is genuine, one of those persons is a old guy who has amazing european! Weapons from 1500-1800 and he was allso deceived by that forgery.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by serdar

One needs to be very very carefull and thrust no one, but then again i dont get it several expert people looked at that polish saber and all said it is genuine, one of those persons is a old guy who has amazing european! Weapons from 1500-1800 and he was allso deceived by that forgery.

It reminds me of the 1976 film with Adriano Celentano, "Bluff: A History of Scams and Frauds."