Frontier cuirass c. 1720 believed Pueblo Indian in Spanish Style

Battara · 19th March 2025, 09:04 PM

I'm quite sure that this is not soft leather but carabao hide, probably dried hard not supple.

Mabagani was a member here long ago, but his behavior and others during the Macao Museum of Art exhibit got him and the others banned. So no, he ditched me as well personally since I was the only one of the original people involved to be asked back to the exhibit work.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2025, 11:52 PM

Thank you so much Jose,
What is important here is this example shown is completely unlike any other Moro armor I can find anywhere. All other examples and designs are front opening reflecting the Islamic influenced forms of mail armor on which they were based long before the Spaniards arrived.

Since this is likely of the same likely 19th century vintage as it seems most Moro armor in the references I have found, this design which is entirely enclosed without mail does resemble the example I posted. Since my example is from c. 1720s, it would appear that Spanish designs from the Southwest must have diffused into the Philippines, perhaps via the 'Manila galleons'?

The frontier example is of cuir boulli, that is two ply boiled bull hide, dried, shaped and hardened. I am curious whether this process was ever used in the Philippine archipelagos. It would seem these types of leather or rawhide would not be very durable in wet, tropical climates.

I am wondering if any other examples of Moro armor are like this one, in one unit without mail, skirted etc. and in hide as noted.

Battara · 20th March 2025, 03:43 AM

Spanish armor of the 17c and after was skirted. However, some Indonesian armor is similar in style. Either it is influenced by the Portuguese and/or by way of India.

Rick · 20th March 2025, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Spanish armor of the 17c and after was skirted. However, some Indonesian armor is similar in style. Either it is influenced by the Portuguese and/or by way of India.

The triangular breast plate pattern on the Pueblo example looks a lot like okir.

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2025, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The triangular breast plate pattern on the Pueblo example looks a lot like okir.

Rick what is okir?

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2025, 06:50 AM

The leather cuirass Pueblo in Spanish style

detail from Segesser II hide painting , Santa Fe New Mexico depicting Villasur battle , near Platte & Loup rivers Nebraska 1720.
Pueblo artist unknown
Baroque art features in decoration
Note throat and neck fixtures
Cuir Boulli bull hide 2 ply

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2025, 03:58 PM

I see what is meant by okir, and that is of course a remarkably similar type of ornamentation.
What it as hand here is that the cuirass in question is of far earlier age than most Moro examples typically discussed. While I have just shown the image excerpt from the Segesser II artwork, the type of armor worn by the Pueblo warrior depicted is of the length nearly to knees.
It appears open at the side as with these cuirasses, they were fastened together.
Typical buckskin cueras were more of a jacket, open in front.

It must be recalled this was in the period 1690-1720, and the artwork depicting this battle was completed shortly after the 1720 event. By 1758 the art was sent to Switzerland where it remained unknown to history until 1951.
These ornamental devices are seen in the bordering of the artwork, suggesting the baroque style with these kinds of elements was in use in Santa Fe, N.M. at this time.

Despite the similarities to the 'okir' in the Philippines pertaining to decoration, I am wondering if the Spanish influences transported there over the years might have brought the creation of this type of cuirass sometime in the 19th c. as per most Moro armor is of mail and plate.

Are there examples of Moro armor from earlier than 19th c known to survive?

20th March 2025, 06:50 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Pueblo armor 17th-18th c The leather cuirass Pueblo in Spanish style detail from Segesser II hide painting , Santa Fe New Mexico depicting Villasur battle , near Platte & Loup rivers Nebraska 1720. Pueblo artist unknown Baroque art features in decoration Note throat and neck fixtures Cuir Boulli bull hide 2 ply Attached Images

19th March 2025, 09:04 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I'm quite sure that this is not soft leather but carabao hide, probably dried hard not supple. Mabagani was a member here long ago, but his behavior and others during the Macao Museum of Art exhibit got him and the others banned. So no, he ditched me as well personally since I was the only one of the original people involved to be asked back to the exhibit work.

19th March 2025, 11:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much Jose, What is important here is this example shown is completely unlike any other Moro armor I can find anywhere. All other examples and designs are front opening reflecting the Islamic influenced forms of mail armor on which they were based long before the Spaniards arrived. Since this is likely of the same likely 19th century vintage as it seems most Moro armor in the references I have found, this design which is entirely enclosed without mail does resemble the example I posted. Since my example is from c. 1720s, it would appear that Spanish designs from the Southwest must have diffused into the Philippines, perhaps via the 'Manila galleons'? The frontier example is of cuir boulli, that is two ply boiled bull hide, dried, shaped and hardened. I am curious whether this process was ever used in the Philippine archipelagos. It would seem these types of leather or rawhide would not be very durable in wet, tropical climates. I am wondering if any other examples of Moro armor are like this one, in one unit without mail, skirted etc. and in hide as noted.

20th March 2025, 03:43 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Spanish armor of the 17c and after was skirted. However, some Indonesian armor is similar in style. Either it is influenced by the Portuguese and/or by way of India.

21st March 2025, 03:58 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I see what is meant by okir, and that is of course a remarkably similar type of ornamentation. What it as hand here is that the cuirass in question is of far earlier age than most Moro examples typically discussed. While I have just shown the image excerpt from the Segesser II artwork, the type of armor worn by the Pueblo warrior depicted is of the length nearly to knees. It appears open at the side as with these cuirasses, they were fastened together. Typical buckskin cueras were more of a jacket, open in front. It must be recalled this was in the period 1690-1720, and the artwork depicting this battle was completed shortly after the 1720 event. By 1758 the art was sent to Switzerland where it remained unknown to history until 1951. These ornamental devices are seen in the bordering of the artwork, suggesting the baroque style with these kinds of elements was in use in Santa Fe, N.M. at this time. Despite the similarities to the 'okir' in the Philippines pertaining to decoration, I am wondering if the Spanish influences transported there over the years might have brought the creation of this type of cuirass sometime in the 19th c. as per most Moro armor is of mail and plate. Are there examples of Moro armor from earlier than 19th c known to survive?