Frontier cuirass c. 1720 believed Pueblo Indian in Spanish Style

Battara · 18th March 2025, 08:13 PM

The Moros did make leather armour. I'll look through my records to see if I have a picture.

Battara · 18th March 2025, 08:27 PM

Here is one picture I have of Mabagani's leather suit of Moro armour.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2025, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is one picture I have of Mabagani's leather suit of Moro armour.

This is wonderful!! Can we find detail on this armor? I presume it is 1800s. Is there a way to reach the owner of this? Was there a tradition of using cuir boulli (boiled hide) in the Philippines, or was it leather coated with lacquer?

It would seen that leather use in the tropical climate would be less than durable.

Ian · 19th March 2025, 08:34 PM

Jose, thanks for that picture. I don't recall seeing it before.

Jim, the links between the Americas and the Philippines were very strong during the Spanish Colonial period. Many of the Spanish Governors of the Philippines came from Mexico, so a direct connection between the Spanish Colonial administrations involving the Pueblo Indians and the Philippines should be fairly easy to establish. I have not looked into this, but my sources were Filipino academics when I was working in the Philippines during the late 1990s-early 2000s.

Regards, Ian

Battara · 19th March 2025, 09:04 PM

I'm quite sure that this is not soft leather but carabao hide, probably dried hard not supple.

Mabagani was a member here long ago, but his behavior and others during the Macao Museum of Art exhibit got him and the others banned. So no, he ditched me as well personally since I was the only one of the original people involved to be asked back to the exhibit work.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2025, 11:52 PM

Thank you so much Jose,
What is important here is this example shown is completely unlike any other Moro armor I can find anywhere. All other examples and designs are front opening reflecting the Islamic influenced forms of mail armor on which they were based long before the Spaniards arrived.

Since this is likely of the same likely 19th century vintage as it seems most Moro armor in the references I have found, this design which is entirely enclosed without mail does resemble the example I posted. Since my example is from c. 1720s, it would appear that Spanish designs from the Southwest must have diffused into the Philippines, perhaps via the 'Manila galleons'?

The frontier example is of cuir boulli, that is two ply boiled bull hide, dried, shaped and hardened. I am curious whether this process was ever used in the Philippine archipelagos. It would seem these types of leather or rawhide would not be very durable in wet, tropical climates.

I am wondering if any other examples of Moro armor are like this one, in one unit without mail, skirted etc. and in hide as noted.

Battara · 20th March 2025, 03:43 AM

Spanish armor of the 17c and after was skirted. However, some Indonesian armor is similar in style. Either it is influenced by the Portuguese and/or by way of India.

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2025, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Jose, thanks for that picture. I don't recall seeing it before.

Jim, the links between the Americas and the Philippines were very strong during the Spanish Colonial period. Many of the Spanish Governors of the Philippines came from Mexico, so a direct connection between the Spanish Colonial administrations involving the Pueblo Indians and the Philippines should be fairly easy to establish. I have not looked into this, but my sources were Filipino academics when I was working in the Philippines during the late 1990s-early 2000s.

Regards, Ian

Thank you Ian, good points about the connections between Spanish colonial and Philippine administrations, and there was certain networking from Santa Fe where Pueblos were situated. While I have learned a lot about Spanish colonial, I unfortunately know very little on the Philippines and Moros.

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2025, 08:34 PM

Thank you so much guys! This is very important.
I have browsed through everything I can find online, but absolutely nothing I can find comes close to this unusual example. It has a long history in the American Southwest, but was only rediscovered in recent years in an obscure estate sale, and has since been both on display in several venues as well as enduring notable controversies.

As there is not a single example of comparable armor anywhere of this material and from the Spanish frontiers of the 17th into 18th c. it is not possible to evaluate on this basis. The Philippine suggestion I take as rather a 'drawing at straws' solution which has yet to offer any supported evidence.

The most important comparison, virtually the only one, is depictions of Spanish soldiers and Pueblo allies in an obscure event in 1720 in Nebraska (the Villasur expedition) where they were massacred by Pawnee and Oto warriors under French forces. These type cuirasses with skirted rawhide in place of tassets are seen in the Indian produced hide painting. There are numerous details in these iconic works which were unknown in America until the 1980s when they were brought back from their holding in Lucerne, Switzerland since 1750s.
This is why this form of cuirass in cuir boulli has remained unknown, as the first notable reference to Spanish colonial arms and armor I am aware of is Curtis (1927). Obviously the well known cuera jackets (sewn hides) are described in various sources since, but this rare form has never been noted.There are few references on these topics, so this is most important.

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2025, 09:15 PM

Amazing, do we have more detail on this? period etc.
What type of leather?

Rick · 19th March 2025, 05:31 AM

Possibly a comparison of the chest plate and pueblo designs might be in order here.
Or has that already been done?

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2025, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Possibly a comparison of the chest plate and pueblo designs might be in order here.
Or has that already been done?

Thank you Rick. Actually thanks to Jose showing that particular armor, which does of course appear to be leather, I cannot make out construction features nor material used(what type of leather) .

The frontier example is made using the cuir bouilli process ,which is boiling raw hide, drying, and shaping.
This is contrary to leather which is tanned and supple but not in solid hard product as cuir boulli.

I have references which indicate the Pueblos allied to Spaniards were instructed by the then governor of Santa Fe to make boiled hide armor for their planned attack to retake Santa Fe in 1681. The Pueblo uprisings in 1680 had caused the Spanish to flee the city as many tribes had formed a coalition against them.

What is important here is design features, and it is noted that the triangular fixture on the Moro armor is compellingly similar to the frontier example.
Also the triangular elements along the waist demarcation are similar.
I am thinking this brings a strong possibiity that the Pueblo design may have diffused to the Philippines via the Spanish presence there in later years.

I am under the impression that the Moro examples of armor known come from later periods than the frontier example, from mid to late 19th c.
The influence of the espasda ancha for example occurs in numbers of Philippine bolos of these later periods, while the espada ancha was of course from mid 18th into mid 19th c.

18th March 2025, 08:27 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Here is one picture I have of Mabagani's leather suit of Moro armour. Attached Images

18th March 2025, 08:13 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	The Moros did make leather armour. I'll look through my records to see if I have a picture.

19th March 2025, 08:34 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Jose, thanks for that picture. I don't recall seeing it before. Jim, the links between the Americas and the Philippines were very strong during the Spanish Colonial period. Many of the Spanish Governors of the Philippines came from Mexico, so a direct connection between the Spanish Colonial administrations involving the Pueblo Indians and the Philippines should be fairly easy to establish. I have not looked into this, but my sources were Filipino academics when I was working in the Philippines during the late 1990s-early 2000s. Regards, Ian

19th March 2025, 09:04 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	I'm quite sure that this is not soft leather but carabao hide, probably dried hard not supple. Mabagani was a member here long ago, but his behavior and others during the Macao Museum of Art exhibit got him and the others banned. So no, he ditched me as well personally since I was the only one of the original people involved to be asked back to the exhibit work.

19th March 2025, 11:52 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you so much Jose, What is important here is this example shown is completely unlike any other Moro armor I can find anywhere. All other examples and designs are front opening reflecting the Islamic influenced forms of mail armor on which they were based long before the Spaniards arrived. Since this is likely of the same likely 19th century vintage as it seems most Moro armor in the references I have found, this design which is entirely enclosed without mail does resemble the example I posted. Since my example is from c. 1720s, it would appear that Spanish designs from the Southwest must have diffused into the Philippines, perhaps via the 'Manila galleons'? The frontier example is of cuir boulli, that is two ply boiled bull hide, dried, shaped and hardened. I am curious whether this process was ever used in the Philippine archipelagos. It would seem these types of leather or rawhide would not be very durable in wet, tropical climates. I am wondering if any other examples of Moro armor are like this one, in one unit without mail, skirted etc. and in hide as noted.

20th March 2025, 03:43 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Spanish armor of the 17c and after was skirted. However, some Indonesian armor is similar in style. Either it is influenced by the Portuguese and/or by way of India.

18th March 2025, 08:34 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you so much guys! This is very important. I have browsed through everything I can find online, but absolutely nothing I can find comes close to this unusual example. It has a long history in the American Southwest, but was only rediscovered in recent years in an obscure estate sale, and has since been both on display in several venues as well as enduring notable controversies. As there is not a single example of comparable armor anywhere of this material and from the Spanish frontiers of the 17th into 18th c. it is not possible to evaluate on this basis. The Philippine suggestion I take as rather a 'drawing at straws' solution which has yet to offer any supported evidence. The most important comparison, virtually the only one, is depictions of Spanish soldiers and Pueblo allies in an obscure event in 1720 in Nebraska (the Villasur expedition) where they were massacred by Pawnee and Oto warriors under French forces. These type cuirasses with skirted rawhide in place of tassets are seen in the Indian produced hide painting. There are numerous details in these iconic works which were unknown in America until the 1980s when they were brought back from their holding in Lucerne, Switzerland since 1750s. This is why this form of cuirass in cuir boulli has remained unknown, as the first notable reference to Spanish colonial arms and armor I am aware of is Curtis (1927). Obviously the well known cuera jackets (sewn hides) are described in various sources since, but this rare form has never been noted.There are few references on these topics, so this is most important.

18th March 2025, 09:15 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Amazing, do we have more detail on this? period etc. What type of leather?

19th March 2025, 05:31 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Possibly a comparison of the chest plate and pueblo designs might be in order here. Or has that already been done?