Can you help …..?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

I need help in locating a keris/kris with fretwork similar to that shown in the picture attached. Please look at it carefully if you think you may be able to help.

Thank you.

Best,

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

I need help in locating a kris/keris with fretwork similar to that shown in the picture attached. Please look at it carefully if you think you may be able to help.

Thank you.

Best,

[David]

This Bali keris is close. Not sure exactly what you are looking for or why. Can you be more specific about your request?

[Battara]

Looks Balinese to me.

[Gustav]

It is from a time period when Javanese and Balinese was very close.

[A. G. Maisey]

This greneng does not fit within the major recognised Javanese greneng forms of any period.

It is very probably the work of a maker who was not influenced by a major keris classification.

It might be of some assistance to see a well executed photograph of the entire keris.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies.

Battara: You may be correct, but I haven’t seen it on any Balinese/Lombok keris.

Gustav: You may generally be confirming my suspicions.

Alan: I agree with you to a certain extent.
To date, I have seen several kerises with it (both straight and eloek blades). All were enviably well-executed.(Hence my interest in owning one for further investigation.)
Please accept my sincere apologies; the above picture was the only one allowed me at the time.

Once again, thank you all.

Best,

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo David,

Thank you for your reply.
Please refer to the same thread in the other room.
Thank you.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Could I request a clarification of what you mean by "some extent"?

Reason being, that when I could not place this greneng from my own memory, I then spent quite a bit of time trying to find a match in books & other published works, but I could not locate a match.

This greneng does display elements of other greneng forms that are pretty much standardised forms, but none of these are a match for the posted photo.

One of the major indicators for a Javanese keris classification (tangguh) is the rondha, & sometimes the complete greneng, if this greneng under discussion does not fit within the matrix then we might need to start thinking along somewhat different lines.

It is regrettable that you were not permitted the opportunity to produce a reasonably clear photograph, I really cannot see important details very well at all on the photo posted. I did massage this photo through Photoshop, but it is such a small image that it pixelated and became even harder to read.

[Ian]

Perhaps this view may be a bit more helpful. It is markedly pixelated by one can now see the line of separation between the ganja and the rest of the blade.

[Ian]

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

[Gustav]

Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris.

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

[A. G. Maisey]

To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten.

I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix.

Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

[Gustav]

It is not featured in Jensens book, I guess it is in Krisdisk, chapter Bali, I cannot check at the moment. Here an even smaller picture of the entire Keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Agreed, similar, but from what i am able to see in these tiny images, I simply cannot put Amuk's photo into the same box as the keris in your image, Gustav, nor the Jensen Banten images.

I read Amuk's request as a request to point him in the direction of the classification of keris that had a particular style of greneng, and I cannot do that from such a tiny image, when we look at a greneng, & some other keris characteristics, we look at very particular detail, and a small, poor image just does not give the required detail. Still if Amuk is only looking for similarity, then maybe Banten could be sufficient for him.

Banten of course is Sunda, so as I said in an earlier post, we need to start thinking in a different direction.

Ultimately it all comes down to the difficulty of only seeing something as a picture, in the hand we can often form a different opinion.

[Gustav]

Alan, this is the same Keris.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

[Sajen]

Alan, load down the picture and zoom it.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Detlef, I have already done that, plus an attempt to improve through Photoshop, but the original pic is only 72X72dpi, it is simply not big enough nor good enough to let me see what I would like to see, & I don't much like guessing.

In any case, Amuk did ask for "similiar" & I think Gustav has given him this, I was thinking Jawa, & Banten is not Land of Jawa, which is what the whole tangguh system is based on. I was being too demanding.

I'm just back from a month in Jawa/Bali, & my mind is still using standards as they apply there --- at least amongst the people I associate with.

[Gustav]

Not just similar, the same. By the way in Jensens Krisdisk it's in chapter North-East Java, snd as I understand it, he thinks it could possibly be from late Majapahit or the surviving hinduistic part of East Java in 16th cent.

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree Gustav, the same.

You have done a much better job than I did of producing reasonably readable images.

I would very much prefer to leave Karsten Jensen's opinions out of any discussion on blade origin, I do accept that his system of classification has value where the objective is to form an opinion on the entire keris including the dress, but that system is in total variance to my own training & experience and is not in any way able to be aligned with Javanese standards.

In respect of the greneng under discussion, I feel that this general form of greneng would be found to occur principally in keris that would attract a Banten classification rather than any other, & Banten is not Jawa.

The Solonese system of classification, does not include Banten as a recognised classification, & this is true of all other classifications that are now recognised, the reason being that when the Solonese system was developed, only truly Javanese keris were recognised as being valid instruments for storage of wealth.

The newly recognised classifications have been developed by collectors for a very different set of reasons than were applied in development of the original classifications.

In respect of the greneng under discussion, & in consideration of the much improved images that you have presented, I am of the opinion that Amuk's greneng can be accepted as belonging to the school of Banten, which places it in Sunda.

However, although this greneng might be able to be given a Banten classification, it is not the only greneng form that can be found on keris that can be given a Banten classification. So if Amuk is looking for a keris of the type that might carry this greneng form, perhaps he needs to adopt a selection process that includes a number of classification indicators, not only the greneng.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

Ian, Amuk had already posted a thread on this in the Keris Forum. I am going to combine these threads to include my contribution and avoid future confusion and duplicity.

[Ian]

Thanks David. That makes a lot of sense. Double posting does create some confusion.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

My apologies.
I was rather impatient and so left the thread to retire to the skull-cave and consult the chronicles; emerging to launch into an investigative foray into the matter.
Result:
- better-informed
- becoming the delighted owner of sought-after fretwork (see attached); less-than-ideal but adequate for current purpose. (I may post about it at a later date.)
Thank you for all your input.


Ian & David:

The reason that I initially posted in both rooms was that my initial research indicated the presence of the same fretwork as on David’s Bali blade, on blades from diverse areas of The Archipelago (e.g. sundering/kalis, patani, palembang etc. ). Thus, I had hoped to reach a wider audience. Sorry for the inconvenience.

As for the initial picture of the fretwork in post #1, I found it in a past thread; it is better than the picture of the hand-drawn sketch I have. I focused just on the fretwork so as not to detract from my subject of interest.

I now consider this thread closed.

Best,

[Gustav]

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Gustav

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

Hullo Gustav,

I was referring to my initial picture (cause for some distraction): black blade on green background.

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

That others know about which keris Gustav speaks here.

[Amuk Murugul]

Continuing in the vein of Gustav/Sajen:

- Thatcher may have asked: "Who are these others; name them".
- I have attached part of a recent missive (edited):The message itself baffled my Harrovian English. Perhaps Gustav/Sajen may care to elucidate.

[Sajen]

My congrats!