Zheng Yi Sao Pirate Sword

piratelady · 3rd March 2025, 05:53 PM

Thanks Gentlemen. I assume she carried a smallsword because the average height of a Chinese woman in the 19th century was 4'10" to 5'2"

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2025, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piratelady

Thanks Gentlemen. I assume she carried a smallsword because the average height of a Chinese woman in the 19th century was 4'10" to 5'2"

That would be a good assumption, but it is most unlikely for anyone Chinese to be using a small sword (rapier type blade), and the hilt looks to me like the swing out knuckleguard I suggested. Many Chinese swords were short for use in close quarters..

Gustav · 6th March 2025, 10:51 AM

Gentlemen, you are discussing an assumed depiction of a person, who was around 74 years old at the time of invention of photography and died 5 years later.

Ian · 6th March 2025, 12:31 PM

Gustav, this may not be a photograph. It could be a drawing. I did not look at it as a photograph.

Gustav · 6th March 2025, 12:59 PM

Ian, that looks not like a drawing from before the arriving of photography from SEAsia (attached a drawing from 1836(?)). To be honest, it doesn't look like a drawing or photography from 19th cent., it does have a look of a film still, not older then 1930'ties, perhaps reproduced as a litography.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2025, 03:19 PM

Good points guys, estimating weapons from various depictions, whether art or in the scope of photography from its historical standpoint, is sketchy.
The weapons being worn or held by the subject often, if not typically, were not likely owned or used by them.

I agree the nature of this image certainly does not look like it is of the period suggested, which would have been likely late 18th c. at best. ...and most obviously not a photo, or even an artistic rendering as it does not seem characteristic of the styles then.

This is rather like trying to gauge the style of sword used by Blackbeard or other sundry pirates shown in period woodcut images in the book by Johnson(1724). The swords in these images suggest certain styles of swords presumed in use by these pirates, but often with somewhat fanciful depictions of 'scimitar' type blades.

This does not diminish the desire to better estimate what type of weapons would have been used by this important female pirate, but such details would be better served by looking into the weapons used by the various groups of Chinese martial artists and 'river pirates' of late 18th century.

Quite possibly such weapons would have been the 'double' swords or knives termed these days as hudeidao (butterfly knives) which were halved to fit into same scabbard. While considered a 19th century weapon, these were noted in accounts of c.1820s suggesting they had already been in use for some time.
These seem to have been an innovation of Southern Chinese martial arts such as 'Wing Chun' and the Cantonese term for these appears to have been 'wu dip do', as far as I have found.

The 'double sword' concept extended to full length swords such as the jian as well, however these were dual weapons held in separate compartments in a single scabbard. The concept of course was fighting with two weapons, much as in the west in rapier duels with either sword and dagger or two rapiers (known as a 'case').

The best study of these weapons was compiled by Gavin Nugent some years ago, noting the rather clouded character of these recorded historically and that they were popularized in mid to later 19th c.
Perhaps the most reliable presumption of what type weapon would have been used by these pirates in China would have been the more well known daos etc. of the period.

Ian · 6th March 2025, 08:48 PM

Gustav, you raise some very salient points about the depiction of this woman. A movie frame sounds like a good possibility—taken from a movie about this famed pirate—or advertising for it. In which case the appearance of a strange sword may be artistic license rather than historical fact. Do we know much about the movie industry in China in the 1930s?

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2025, 03:17 PM

Apparently China had a notable number of films from the silent era into 1930s, even including "The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes".
Reciprocally, the west had a range of films derived from novels written based on Chinese characters such as the 'Charlie Chan' series from Earl Derr Biggers books from 1919 into films from 1926.
The "Mask of Fu Manchu" (from the book by Sax Rohmer) was in 1932.

Naturally while historically significant as far as the study of film production, these movies created unfortunate stereotypes and considerable 'license'.
I have not seen the Chinese films, nor stills etc. but it would be interesting to see what sort of contexts and character they would have used regarding artistic license.

Again, in my view, following representations of arms portrayed in these kinds of contexts is unlikely to be helpful in estimating those used by historic figures in reality. It would be more reliable to study more period accounts pertaining to the persons or groups being examined and the weapons contemporary to them.

I will say however that in more modern times it seems researchers have established a much better benchmark for accuracy in weaponry in use along with other details in many films etc. As always there are exceptions.

kronckew · 9th March 2025, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

Quite possibly such weapons would have been the 'double' swords or knives termed these days as hudeidao (butterfly knives) which were halved to fit into same scabbard. ...

These also came in 'single' sword versions with un-halved grips.

Mine: I think of them as 'Pirate' swords.

RobT · 11th March 2025, 01:26 AM

Hi All,

They also came as single knives. At 14.625 in (37.1475 cm) long, 2.0625 in (5.23875 cm) wide at the hilt, and almost .25 in (6.35mm) thick (spine at the hilt), my example certainly meets the Crocodile Dundee criteria for a “kniof”

Sincerely,
RobT

PS: The guard is very heavy brass and the hilt is wood.

6th March 2025, 12:59 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Ian, that looks not like a drawing from before the arriving of photography from SEAsia (attached a drawing from 1836(?)). To be honest, it doesn't look like a drawing or photography from 19th cent., it does have a look of a film still, not older then 1930'ties, perhaps reproduced as a litography. Attached Images

6th March 2025, 03:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Good points guys, estimating weapons from various depictions, whether art or in the scope of photography from its historical standpoint, is sketchy. The weapons being worn or held by the subject often, if not typically, were not likely owned or used by them. I agree the nature of this image certainly does not look like it is of the period suggested, which would have been likely late 18th c. at best. ...and most obviously not a photo, or even an artistic rendering as it does not seem characteristic of the styles then. This is rather like trying to gauge the style of sword used by Blackbeard or other sundry pirates shown in period woodcut images in the book by Johnson(1724). The swords in these images suggest certain styles of swords presumed in use by these pirates, but often with somewhat fanciful depictions of 'scimitar' type blades. This does not diminish the desire to better estimate what type of weapons would have been used by this important female pirate, but such details would be better served by looking into the weapons used by the various groups of Chinese martial artists and 'river pirates' of late 18th century. Quite possibly such weapons would have been the 'double' swords or knives termed these days as hudeidao (butterfly knives) which were halved to fit into same scabbard. While considered a 19th century weapon, these were noted in accounts of c.1820s suggesting they had already been in use for some time. These seem to have been an innovation of Southern Chinese martial arts such as 'Wing Chun' and the Cantonese term for these appears to have been 'wu dip do', as far as I have found. The 'double sword' concept extended to full length swords such as the jian as well, however these were dual weapons held in separate compartments in a single scabbard. The concept of course was fighting with two weapons, much as in the west in rapier duels with either sword and dagger or two rapiers (known as a 'case'). The best study of these weapons was compiled by Gavin Nugent some years ago, noting the rather clouded character of these recorded historically and that they were popularized in mid to later 19th c. Perhaps the most reliable presumption of what type weapon would have been used by these pirates in China would have been the more well known daos etc. of the period. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th March 2025 at 03:29 PM.

11th March 2025, 01:26 AM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Single Knife Version Hi All, They also came as single knives. At 14.625 in (37.1475 cm) long, 2.0625 in (5.23875 cm) wide at the hilt, and almost .25 in (6.35mm) thick (spine at the hilt), my example certainly meets the Crocodile Dundee criteria for a “kniof” Sincerely, RobT PS: The guard is very heavy brass and the hilt is wood. Attached Images

3rd March 2025, 05:53 PM	#1
piratelady Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 6	Thanks Gentlemen. I assume she carried a smallsword because the average height of a Chinese woman in the 19th century was 4'10" to 5'2"

6th March 2025, 10:51 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Gentlemen, you are discussing an assumed depiction of a person, who was around 74 years old at the time of invention of photography and died 5 years later.

6th March 2025, 12:31 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Gustav, this may not be a photograph. It could be a drawing. I did not look at it as a photograph.

6th March 2025, 08:48 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Gustav, you raise some very salient points about the depiction of this woman. A movie frame sounds like a good possibility—taken from a movie about this famed pirate—or advertising for it. In which case the appearance of a strange sword may be artistic license rather than historical fact. Do we know much about the movie industry in China in the 1930s?

7th March 2025, 03:17 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Apparently China had a notable number of films from the silent era into 1930s, even including "The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes". Reciprocally, the west had a range of films derived from novels written based on Chinese characters such as the 'Charlie Chan' series from Earl Derr Biggers books from 1919 into films from 1926. The "Mask of Fu Manchu" (from the book by Sax Rohmer) was in 1932. Naturally while historically significant as far as the study of film production, these movies created unfortunate stereotypes and considerable 'license'. I have not seen the Chinese films, nor stills etc. but it would be interesting to see what sort of contexts and character they would have used regarding artistic license. Again, in my view, following representations of arms portrayed in these kinds of contexts is unlikely to be helpful in estimating those used by historic figures in reality. It would be more reliable to study more period accounts pertaining to the persons or groups being examined and the weapons contemporary to them. I will say however that in more modern times it seems researchers have established a much better benchmark for accuracy in weaponry in use along with other details in many films etc. As always there are exceptions.