Ottoman silver shamshir sword

eftihis · 18th February 2025, 11:16 AM

A nice Turkish ottoman shamshir with silver scabbard and rhino hilt. This looks like an early war trophy from the revolution of 1821, since it has the symbol of the cross engraved (obviously latter that the manufacture date) on both sides of the guard, and in one side the date 1822. Also engraved the symbol of double headed eagle.

gp · 18th February 2025, 09:14 PM

very nice one ! My compliments.

The double headed eagle made me think of 3 potential "culprits" :

Russia,
Albania,
the Holy Roman empire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

but most likely it is or could be related to Ali Pasha of Ioannina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina

who had his role in the strive for independence in the region, next to being a link to the Hellenistic region .

Tip for those interested in the latter; a most interesting and beautiful book... "Captain Michalis / Ο Καπετάν Μιχάλης " (AKA Freedom or Death) by Nikos Kazantzakis

TVV · 18th February 2025, 10:08 PM

The eagle was a symbol of the Eastern Roman Empire for many centuries before Russia even thought of adopting it...

OsobistGB · Yesterday, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

The eagle was a symbol of the Eastern Roman Empire for many centuries before Russia even thought of adopting it...

After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Eastern Roman Empire ceased to exist. Historical sources provide insight into the connection between the double-headed eagle and Russia, which claims to be the successor of Rome and Constantinople.

Ian · Yesterday, 02:32 PM

Osobist,

Your version of history is very Russocentric and not reflective of the persistence of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and of course the Roman Catholic Church which has remained in Rome. I have edited your post to remove your version of "historical facts," as I consider these are provocative comments that should not be pursued further here. Anyone responding to the issues you raised will have their comments deleted because this topic is extraneous to the present discussion and likely to lead to friction.

Ian

TVV · Yesterday, 05:30 PM

All I was trying to point out is that the double headed eagle, 1822 date, initials and Greek cross which were added to the original silver fittings are most likely associated with the Eastern Roman Empire and the dream of its revival in the context of Greek nationalism in the early 19th century. Basically, I am in agreement with Eftihis on this.

If someone believes the symbol should be interpreted differently, I doubt anyone would be against well reasoned arguments.

gp · Yesterday, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

All I was trying to point out is that the double headed eagle, 1822 date, initials and Greek cross which were added to the original silver fittings are most likely associated with the Eastern Roman Empire and the dream of its revival in the context of Greek nationalism in the early 19th century. Basically, I am in agreement with Eftihis on this.

If someone believes the symbol should be interpreted differently, I doubt anyone would be against well reasoned arguments.

I agree as well;

an orignally in the Ottoman empire made weapon with a later added decoration referring to the Greek insurgence / independence battle which started in 1821 :
https://dlab.epfl.ch/wikispeedia/wpc...dependence.htm

which started also around that time in the Balkans as well ;
Serbia 1804: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Revolution
and much later the Herzegovina uprising 1875-1877 .

All prior the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)....

As for the double headed eagle, multiple origins can be found, hence the link I added, starting from the Bronze age being displayed....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

but the Greek link might indicate the cooperation with Ali Pasha of Ioannina as can be found in the explanation in the above link on Ali Pasha of Ioannina....

Nevertheless it is a very very nice historic sword with a higher personal value for any person with Greek roots...

toaster5sqn · Yesterday, 09:00 PM

Is it just me or has it been disassembled at some point and put back together with the quillons inverted.

Robert

serdar · Today, 01:09 AM

Probably Greece, but allso could be from Montenegro, Kotor area, year, latin initials, and eagle like Zeta state had and Crnojević family, ofcourse not from time, but more like memento.
But im allways suspicious with engravings on weapons, they are wery easy to do and age, i mean more detailed ones not plain ones.

serdar · Today, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Is it just me or has it been disassembled at some point and put back together with the quillons inverted.

Robert

I think whole crossguard is a replace, not original ottoman one.

eftihis · Today, 02:37 PM

Hello, and thank you all for your comments! Congratulations to "Serdar" for his observation regarding the crossguard! Having discussed about the sword in the last few days with knowledgeable friends, some facts have been revealed and some conclusions were made. The sword is a late mid to late 19th century piece, and not from 1821. The evidence for this are the tugra stamps that exist on every part of the silverwork, except the crossguard. The tugra looks like Abdülmecid, and it mentions 20 years after its reign so the date of manufacture is 1859. The crossguard is old, but does not have a tugra (it should have one) and does not fit perfectly plus has been place the opposite way arround! So my conclusion is that the sword aquired during one of the Greek-Turkish wars (1866 Cretan rebellion, 1897 war or most likely balkan wars (1912-13). The new owner engraved nicely on the scabbard his initials and the double headed eagle. This is going very well with the Greek beliefs of the time for the resurrection of the Byzantine empire. Latter, who knows when, the crossguard was lost. The sword eventually went for sale. The "antique shop owner" replaced the missing guard from his shop's spare parts with an other ottoman guard, that had the naive engraving of the cross and the date 1822 on it. He was not a warrior so he didnt care or noticed that he placed the guard the opposite side, that is not convinient for handling. This must have happened in 1960-70, since it was in the family of the owner for some decades, bought by his father, now deceased.

18th February 2025, 11:16 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Ottoman silver shamshir sword A nice Turkish ottoman shamshir with silver scabbard and rhino hilt. This looks like an early war trophy from the revolution of 1821, since it has the symbol of the cross engraved (obviously latter that the manufacture date) on both sides of the guard, and in one side the date 1822. Also engraved the symbol of double headed eagle. Attached Images

Yesterday, 02:32 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,303	Off topic and contentious Osobist, Your version of history is very Russocentric and not reflective of the persistence of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and of course the Roman Catholic Church which has remained in Rome. I have edited your post to remove your version of "historical facts," as I consider these are provocative comments that should not be pursued further here. Anyone responding to the issues you raised will have their comments deleted because this topic is extraneous to the present discussion and likely to lead to friction. Ian Last edited by Ian; Yesterday at 02:51 PM.

18th February 2025, 09:14 PM	#2
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 806	very nice one ! My compliments. The double headed eagle made me think of 3 potential "culprits" : Russia, Albania, the Holy Roman empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle but most likely it is or could be related to Ali Pasha of Ioannina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina who had his role in the strive for independence in the region, next to being a link to the Hellenistic region . Tip for those interested in the latter; a most interesting and beautiful book... "Captain Michalis / Ο Καπετάν Μιχάλης " (AKA Freedom or Death) by Nikos Kazantzakis

18th February 2025, 10:08 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,657	The eagle was a symbol of the Eastern Roman Empire for many centuries before Russia even thought of adopting it...

Yesterday, 05:30 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,657	All I was trying to point out is that the double headed eagle, 1822 date, initials and Greek cross which were added to the original silver fittings are most likely associated with the Eastern Roman Empire and the dream of its revival in the context of Greek nationalism in the early 19th century. Basically, I am in agreement with Eftihis on this. If someone believes the symbol should be interpreted differently, I doubt anyone would be against well reasoned arguments.

Yesterday, 09:00 PM	#8
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 73	Is it just me or has it been disassembled at some point and put back together with the quillons inverted. Robert

Today, 01:09 AM	#9
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 72	Probably Greece, but allso could be from Montenegro, Kotor area, year, latin initials, and eagle like Zeta state had and Crnojević family, ofcourse not from time, but more like memento. But im allways suspicious with engravings on weapons, they are wery easy to do and age, i mean more detailed ones not plain ones.

Today, 02:37 PM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hello, and thank you all for your comments! Congratulations to "Serdar" for his observation regarding the crossguard! Having discussed about the sword in the last few days with knowledgeable friends, some facts have been revealed and some conclusions were made. The sword is a late mid to late 19th century piece, and not from 1821. The evidence for this are the tugra stamps that exist on every part of the silverwork, except the crossguard. The tugra looks like Abdülmecid, and it mentions 20 years after its reign so the date of manufacture is 1859. The crossguard is old, but does not have a tugra (it should have one) and does not fit perfectly plus has been place the opposite way arround! So my conclusion is that the sword aquired during one of the Greek-Turkish wars (1866 Cretan rebellion, 1897 war or most likely balkan wars (1912-13). The new owner engraved nicely on the scabbard his initials and the double headed eagle. This is going very well with the Greek beliefs of the time for the resurrection of the Byzantine empire. Latter, who knows when, the crossguard was lost. The sword eventually went for sale. The "antique shop owner" replaced the missing guard from his shop's spare parts with an other ottoman guard, that had the naive engraving of the cross and the date 1822 on it. He was not a warrior so he didnt care or noticed that he placed the guard the opposite side, that is not convinient for handling. This must have happened in 1960-70, since it was in the family of the owner for some decades, bought by his father, now deceased.